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Thread: Custom .410 Slug Loads

  1. #41
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saiga .410 View Post
    . . . You seem to keep having the right answers for everything! . . .

    I am humble enough to admit that such isn't the case. It's just that I have been down this road a time or two myself. Here is a picture of the 180 grain ones I am using:



    The head is pure nearly soft lead so they are good for deer but I wouldn't trust them for bear, and they are choke safe with the vertical relief grooves. I, also, make up a lighter weight hollow base version without the tail that is a lot easier to do since they are just one step in the swaging die and don't have to mess around with building the tail but for serious deer hunting in the field the extra time and effort required to build the tail assembly with the nitro cards and #4 screw is worth it to get the extra weight advantage beyond what is possible with a hollow base stabilized slug.

  2. #42
    They look great!!! The guy at MBW(Montana Bullet Works) told me that he only uses Lyman #2, but the ones I'm gonna get are heat treated so they come out to a BHN of 22. Is that fine?

  3. #43
    And how many .125 nitro cards should I start out with?
    Need a cheap but good scale. Would the new BPI scale be fine? Heres the link: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPI...tinfo/6880300/

  4. #44
    almost forgot....max powder load?

  5. #45
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saiga .410 View Post
    They look great!!! The guy at MBW(Montana Bullet Works) told me that he only uses Lyman #2, but the ones I'm gonna get are heat treated so they come out to a BHN of 22. Is that fine?
    You definitely won’t get any expansion (but as previously explained if you have a good size flat on the nose you don’t need expansion). Drilling the hole will be slightly easier (believe it or not drilling in harder lead is easier then drilling in softer lead because it gums up on the drill bit less) but it will take a little more torque to screw the screw into the hole. It will work; not necessary to use heat treated in my opinion but it doesn’t hurt anything and it will punch through bone a little better. Just be a little more careful to keep the screw driver tight in the philips drive slot when screwing the screws in since a little more torque will be necessary and thus it will be easier to strip the philips drive slot in the head of the screw if you don’t keep the drive bit nice and tight in it compared to a softer alloy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saiga .410 View Post
    And how many .125 nitro cards should I start out with?
    Need a cheap but good scale. Would the new BPI scale be fine? Heres the link: http://www.ballisticproducts.com/BPI...tinfo/6880300/
    If you use the #4x3/4” screws then it is either 3 or 4 cards
    If you use the #4x1” screws then it is either 5 or 6 cards
    If you use the #4x1-1/4” screws then it is either 7 or 8 cards

    If it were me I would probably look a little harder on the local hardware store shelves and try to find the slightly longer #4x1” screws and my first try would be those with 5 cards. The more commonly available and cheaper if you buy the 1/2 pound bulk box #4x3/4” screws might work to stabilize the size of boolit you are using as your head if you use four cards but that only gives you a 1/4” depth of the screw into the base of the head rather then a better 3/8” worth of depth and more bite to hold the tail on better. I don’t think a tail that was only 3 cards long is going to keep the boolits you are using stable enough to give you optimal accuracy. I think at least 4 cards is going to be necessary possibly 5 or 6.

    The scale you linked to looks good to me and the price is right with a couple positive 4 and 5 reviews so if you are ordering your nitro cards from them anyway then it should be good to go for including in your order as well. I personally bought my scale many years ago and I bought a jewelers scale since electronic scales for reloading were very expensive and somewhat unreliable and finicky back then and you could get a better scale for less money by buying a jewelers scale.

    Quote Originally Posted by Saiga .410 View Post
    almost forgot....max powder load?
    That depends on your exact load combination: exact hull used, exact primer used, the exact weight your complete and assembled slug ends up being (I gave only a general weight range for the start charge), whether you use a fold crimp or a roll crimp and if you use a roll crimp how deep of a roll crimp you use, how tight your guns chamber and forcing cone is, and whether you use just the same 1/8” thick nitro card filler wads to take up the extra space between the powder and the bottom of the slugs tail or you use a more complicated wad column stack utilizing a plastic gas seal cup cut from the bottom of a plastic 410 shot wad and/or use felt or fiber cushion wads in the wad column.

    Long story short, what you should do is start at the start charge of 30 grains and then put the gas piston adjustment to the #1 magnum setting on your S-410 and fire a round or two and see if it fully and reliably cycles the action. If it doesn’t then go to 31 grains and try again, and then 32, and then 33 and so on. I would start to wonder if something was weird with the load if the charge went much above 35 grains and it still wasn’t cycling the action and I would be afraid to go above 40 grains. The nice thing about the fact your using an S-410 is that the gas system that cycles your action basically gives you a built in way to see how hot your loads are.

    So far personally in all the combinations I have tried using R-7 powder in the 410-bore shotgun slug loads in the weight range under discussion I haven’t had to work the load to far up above 30 grains to reach a full power load. If it cycles just fine at 30 grains charge then check your velocity with a chrony and then decide if you want to try to go up a grain or two on the charge but if it fully and reliably cycles the action on #1 gas port adjustment setting then I wouldn’t go more then a grain or two heavier on the charge.

    As I said you can start lower then 30 grains if you wish (although going below about 20 grains could create a blooper load and push a slug only partway down the barrel so I wouldn’t go below 20 grains).

  6. #46
    If my barrel diameter is .410 wouldnt I want a .410 slug? I just put a .410 bullet down my barrel (not the one's I'm using) and a thin layer of lead was taken off the bullet when I tapped it in with a hammer. Normal?

    My plan is probably getting the #4 1 1/4" and using the 7 or 8 cards for the best stability. I have chosen the 3" Cheddite hulls, already primed.Woul you recommend using more nitro cards to fill in the rest or fiber wads?

    I'm roll crimping so wouldn't I stop spinning the tool when the plastic touches the bullet?
    Last edited by Saiga .410; 10-20-2011 at 06:01 PM. Reason: forgot

  7. #47
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saiga .410 View Post
    If my barrel diameter is .410 wouldnt I want a .410 slug? I just put a .410 bullet down my barrel (not the one's I'm using) and a thin layer of lead was taken off the bullet when I tapped it in with a hammer. Normal? . . .
    If you tapped it in the muzzle end, then yes, the breach end has a slight taper into the bore the muzzle does not and a little lead can get shaved as a result if you tapped it in the muzzle end.

    . . . My plan is probably getting the #4 1 1/4" and using the 7 or 8 cards for the best stability. . . .
    The #4x1-1/4” can be very hard (nearly impossible) to find in a regular hardware store and you usually have to mail or internet order them. The #4x1” can usually be found in a local hardware store (usually at least one in the area will have them). I agree that the longer tail would be better but there is also the issue of component availability.

    . . . I have chosen the 3" Cheddite hulls, already primed.Woul you recommend using more nitro cards to fill in the rest or fiber wads? . . .
    Using nitro cards as the filler is quick and easy. Using fiber wads as well as nitro cards especially waxed fiber will slightly improve the load and usually allow the powder charge to be increased a grain or two (resulting in slightly higher velocity loads, 30 to 50 fps) more then if nitro cards only are used as the filler wad stack between the top of the powder and the bottom of the slugs tail assembly (don’t use felt wads in building the actual tail assembly only use hard nitro cards for that). If you use felt wads as well be sure to always us at least one hard nitro card directly over the powder charge or the plastic gas seal cut from the bottom of a plastic 410 shot wad which is itself directly over the powder charge and then the felt wad(s) and then the slug with its attached tail.

    . . . I'm roll crimping so wouldn't I stop spinning the tool when the plastic touches the bullet?
    Yes, of course, but how you assemble your wad-column that takes up the space between the top of the powder and the bottom of the slugs tail determines how much plastic is left on top to make the roll crimp and thus how deep the final roll crimp will be. You could set it up so that there is about a 1/4” of plastic above the nose of the slug before you roll crimp and that will give you a roll crimp that is a little less then an 1/8 of an inch deep. Or you could remove two 1/8” thick nitro cards from your wad column stack so that there is now about a 1/2” of plastic above the nose of the slug before you roll crimp and that will give about a maximum depth for the 410 roll crimp that is a little less than a 1/4 of an inch deep. Or you could leave about a 3/8” of plastic above the nose and make a medium depth roll crimp in-between those two or any other number in-between those two extremes for that matter and that does effect the initial burn cycle of the powder charge so making good ammo does consists of keeping the wad column lengths consistent and thus getting consistent depth roll crimps since the length of the wad column controls the depth of the roll crimp by controlling how much “loose” plastic is above the slugs nose that gets rolled down. And this factor will slightly effect how high you can safely go with your powder charge although it is one of the more minor factors.

  8. #48
    how much plastic do you think I should leave at the top of the hull? Where can I get waxed fiber wads?

  9. #49
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    I used to buy my waxed fiber wads manufacturer direct from circlefly.com (I use enough natural component wadding that I buy nitro cards and fiber wads in bulk quantities placing large orders that cost in the triple digits and keep me supplied for a year or more) but I checked their web-site and I see that they are no longer listing them in their product line and they seem to have disappeared from the online catalog listings of the retail companies I know are their retailers. The only one of their retailers that I could find that was still selling the waxed fiber wads is one of their European retail distributors (wadsincorporated.com) but I don't think you want to pay international shipping and currency exchange rates; at least I wouldn't. Now they still are making and selling (both directly and through their retailers) un-waxed fiber wads and BP lube fiber wads and those will work as a crush wad but aren't as nice as the waxed ones.

    I will also note that if you use a longer tail section, especially if you get your hands on some #4x1-1/4" screws instead of just the one inch length ones there isn't going to be a whole lot of space to fill up anyway.

    I have been using a single 1/2" thickness waxed fiber wad in my 180 grain slug loads that have 3 nitro cards for their tail with a #4x3/4" screw so if you use a 1" screw and 5 cards to make your tail you are probably only going to have room for a 1/4" or so worth of fiber wadding in your wad stack considering that you still have to use at least one nitro card over the powder charge or over the plastic gas seal cup cut from the bottom of a 410 plastic wad which is itself directly over the powder. That would still be fine of course you would just take the 1/2" thick waxed felts and cut them in half making two 1/4" thick felts and a 1/4" worth of crush section in your wad column would still give you some tangible benefits but since the waxed felt wads seem to be phased out of production by the main manufacturer of the older style of wadding components (circlefly) then for at least your first few loads you might want to just stick with nitro cards only and keep things simple and then you can add some fiber cushion wads to your wad column later on either the dry ones or the BP lube ones which would give you a little bit of lubrication in the barrel for the next shot. I really loved the waxed ones though because they were stiffer then the dry ones and gave just the right amount of cushioning in the wad column and would keep the inside of the barrels on my guns beautiful with a "waxed floor" like polish to them when a steady diet of loads using the waxed fiber wads was fired through them which made leading and fowling of the bore completely a non-issue. Believe me I am not happy to see that when my dwindling supply is exhausted it looks like I won't be able to get more of them either !!!

    As far as how much plastic to leave on top for the roll crimp. With the 410 size between a 1/4 and 3/8 of an inch is about right. The main reason being that deep roll crimps are more difficult to form on the smaller gauges and the 410 is the smallest gauge of all unless you count the extremely obscure 9mm rim-fire shotgun. I've even done a few loads where their was a little less then a 1/4 inch of plastic to form the roll crimp and they worked but I don't like to go that shallow on the roll crimp unless I have to.

  10. #50
    Will the regular fiber wad, instead of just nitro cards, give me more feet per second? At this point I'm looking at velocity and composition of my shells. how could i put it together such that velocity increases and composition of the bullet remains fairly simple? Thanks Turbo!!!

  11. #51
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    The reason that using a fiber wad as a cushion section under the slug between the base of its tail and the over-powder wad gives you (slightly) more velocity is because it allows the wad column to "crush" under load which slightly retards how quickly the pressure curve builds which in turn slightly reduces the peak pressure. In my experience from collecting the wads down range and examining them the fiber wads squash down to about half their original length under firing pressure. Thus a 1/2” thick fiber wad crushes down to only a 1/4” thick when the gun is fired and that little bit of crush slows down how quickly the pressure rises in the chamber.

    Long story short, using a fiber wad (dry, lubed, waxed or otherwise) in the wad-column between the bottom of the slugs tail and the top of the over powder seal lets you get an extra grain or two of powder in the shell while still maintaining pressure within safety limits compared to if you used just hard nitro card only which gets you a smidgen more velocity. As I said it only gets me an extra 30 to 50 fps extra velocity in my 180 grain slug loads where I'm using a 1/2" thick fiber wad in my wad column stack.

    Either way it doesn't change the construction of the actual slug, nothing but good hard nitro cards should be used for building its tail. The question of whether or not to use a fiber wad that will "crush" upon firing is only a question of interest in deciding what kind of wad column to build in the extra space between the top of the powder charge and the bottom of the slug’s tail. Depending on how long of a tail you use on your finished slug that may or may not be a very big area to fill up and the smaller the area that needs the be filled up the less it matters whether just hard nitro cards are used or just a single hard nitro card over the powder with the remainder being soft fiber wadding that will "crush" upon firing providing a cushioning effect which as I said lets you get an extra grain or two of powder in the load which translates to slightly more velocity all other things being equal.

    For me personally it is not just a matter of the slight margin gained in velocity but I also loved the waxed fiber wads because they kept my barrel so clean. Unfortunately, it looks like that is now a thing of the past unless I figure out how to do the waxing myself from now on. Un-waxed fiber wads will provide the same cushioning effect just without the side benefits I am used to getting with them.

    As I said earlier you might be best off by just using nothing but hard nitro card for now and then get creative later if you feel the need.

  12. #52
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    A diagram:



    As you can see the longer the tail the less room there is for a fiber cushion wad and thus the less of a benefit it is compared to just using nitro cards (far right).

  13. #53
    thanks, will keep you updated.

  14. #54
    ***UPDATE*** Not gonna be able to do the bear hunt, so lets turn this around into a deer load. How does a 185 grain SWC with a BHN of 15 sound?
    Will everything be able to stay the same, including the powder charge?

    What kind of accuracy can I expect if I attach 8 nitro cards, at 50 yards? 3"?

    Thanks

  15. #55
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    I have been reading this with interest

    I like a .410 for upland game and ground quarry.

    and a slug load like this would be a very handy addition to a versatile firearm.

    I think I may just have to try this

    as for drilling a hole centered, here is my thoughts:
    using scrap wood, drill some test holes to find a bit that drills a diameter that "Just" fits the boolit

    find a 1x2 of a decent hardwood, about 12" long, and cut a narrow kerf down the length, to about 1" from the end
    now, clamp that board onto the drill press table
    now drill your boolit diameter hole, about 1/2 inch up from the kerf bottom, so you have about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of kerf on one side and the ten inches on the other, to the end of the board, and centered on the kerf
    now add some of those nitro cards into the hole, to build it up enough so when a boolit is dropped in, you can pull it out with fingers.
    Now, change your bit to the one you need for your screw.
    drop your boolit in and SQUEEZE the ends of the board together to "Clamp" the boolit and drill down into the boolit.


    use the depth stop, or a bit collar to set your depth.

    if it holds well, drill away.....
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  16. #56
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by nanuk View Post
    I have been reading this with interest

    I like a .410 for upland game and ground quarry.

    and a slug load like this would be a very handy addition to a versatile firearm.

    I think I may just have to try this

    as for drilling a hole centered, here is my thoughts:
    using scrap wood, drill some test holes to find a bit that drills a diameter that "Just" fits the boolit

    find a 1x2 of a decent hardwood, about 12" long, and cut a narrow kerf down the length, to about 1" from the end
    now, clamp that board onto the drill press table
    now drill your boolit diameter hole, about 1/2 inch up from the kerf bottom, so you have about 1/4 to 1/2 inch of kerf on one side and the ten inches on the other, to the end of the board, and centered on the kerf
    now add some of those nitro cards into the hole, to build it up enough so when a boolit is dropped in, you can pull it out with fingers.
    Now, change your bit to the one you need for your screw.
    drop your boolit in and SQUEEZE the ends of the board together to "Clamp" the boolit and drill down into the boolit.


    use the depth stop, or a bit collar to set your depth.

    if it holds well, drill away.....
    you are on to something IMO. If I may suggest check out a company called McMaster Carr. they sell Drill bushings they are hardened and will insure that the drill bit follows the bushing. so it will not matter the bullet or slug nose profile or if a hollow base is what your after the base. get one that has the outside diameter of the bushing larger than or the same size as the od of your Slug/bullet. Use your jig and it will drill the center every time no walk of drill no fail.

  17. #57
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    Reload: I understand. one could just make the "Clamp" deeper to hold the boolit AND bushing. (bushing would need to be a couple thou smaller, as it would work if it spun a bit, but the Boolit needs to be held stable

    depending on the size of the drill, a bushing may actually be necessary to stop a wandering bit making everything off balance

  18. #58
    Ahh, Honchoness,,,,,,,,

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    Last edited by Hamish; 12-16-2011 at 02:14 AM. Reason: oops
    "The long neck 308 was invented in 1894. It is sold under the name of 30-40 Krag.
    The case capacity is virtually identical with the .308 and has that wonderful long neck." -CharGar 2007

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  19. #59
    I definitely dont want to have to pay money for the hoening or a conversion. When I get this load figured out, it will fit my needs perfectly.

  20. #60
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Saiga .410 View Post
    ***UPDATE*** Not gonna be able to do the bear hunt, so lets turn this around into a deer load. How does a 185 grain SWC with a BHN of 15 sound?
    Will everything be able to stay the same, including the powder charge?

    What kind of accuracy can I expect if I attach 8 nitro cards, at 50 yards? 3"?

    Thanks
    For the powder use the same start charge (my R-7 load info) it is just you will be able to work it up just a little more then with a heavier slug and should get a little more velocity as a result for your trade off of slightly lower weight.

    8 nitro cards sounds like overkill to me, 4 to 6 should do just fine for the lighter weight shorter boolit used for the head. 3" at 50 yards may be possible a lot depends on your gun and how it and the load get along with each other. My loads (which have been dialed into the "sweet spot" for MY gun) with my swagged 180 grain lead head and 4 cards for the tail consistently print under 6" at 70 yards out of my S-410 (red dot sight) if I do my part which I consider my maximum range for both accuracy and terminal effect on game.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check