Question from a New Caster

[niler]

Pretty day yesterday, so I drug the fan and casting equipment outside for a half-day casting session. Used range lead (pulled from a steel trap) and all are water quenched. Cast about 1000 bullets total - Bullets pictured w(sorry the quality is no better) ere cast in a (NEW) Lee TL452-230-2R (230GR), (Used) Lyman 452-460 (200 GR), (Used) Lyman 356402 (121 GR) and (Used) Lyman 358495 (141 GR).

Trying to decide what to lube and shoot and what to cull (remelt/recast)

Q1 - ALL the bullets have a small "cast line" running thru the center line. Is this normal? Molds are clean and in good shape (no daylight, rust, or lead splatter). I noticed the small "tear" in one edge of the Wadcutter on the far right, believe I'm pulling from the mold too quick - lube/shoot it or remelt?

Q2 - PLS not the discoloration on some bullets. Is this normal - I get it a lot using range lead - not so much w/wheel weights, but WW local sources are slim - all the range lead I can haul off...

Q3 - Are the "sprue" marks on the bottom of the bullets about like normal?

Any/all feedback is solicited and appreciated.

Thanks in advance!

[MikeS]

To answer some of your questions, as to the first one, the parting line is normal. I don't know about your second question, somebody else will be able to answer it I'm sure. The bases where you've cut off the sprue looks ok to me. I would say that those boolits look pretty good coming from a beginning caster! Now having said that I'm sure some other person will give you a more in depth look at your boolits, and possibly find flaws I've overlooked.

One thing I will say is that the one picture that shows 2 of the TL452-230-2R one lubed, one not (this is not one of the pictures you posted, but I saw it there when looking at the pics you put in this message), and you used WAY too much lube on that boolit! Properly done, you would use maybe 1/10th of the amount you used, or less. A properly tumble lubed boolit should have a very slight tint to it as the only way of seeing that it's lubed (in a picture, in person you should be able to feel the difference between a lubed boolit and an un-lubed one)

Overall I would say that you're on the right track, as those are good looking boolits (at least to me they are), and the nice thing about casting is that if you have some that aren't up to your standards you can just remelt them, and nothing is lost other than the time it took you to make those boolits.

[Taylor]

They look fine to me ,lets shoot'em.

[WHITETAIL]

niler,Welcome to the forum!
Your boolets look good now go
out and throw them down range.

[bobthenailer]

load them up & shoot them have fun !

[Bret4207]

Look pretty good from here. Fire away.

What did you need a fan for outside?

[44man]

They look fine to me too. Only ones I would toss are any deformed when too soft as you opened the mold. Slow down a little before cutting the sprue because it can force a boolit sideways in the mold.

[niler]

THANKS SO MUCH - great feedback, really appreciate it!

Will ease off on the LLA and try the LLA on non-Lee mold bullets. LLA way easier/faster than pan lubing before sizing - what a mess! Household-SIX (AKA my spouse) will be very happy to not see me in the kitchen melting homemade lube in her double boiler!

Brought the fan outside, paranoid about lead exposure, plus it blows away the stink from the **** in the range lead as it melts (club uses some sort of wide rubber coveyor belt [salvage from a local sompany] over the trap - small bits in the range lead - no way to pick it all out).

Will slow down breaking the sprue - usually get the mold up to temp, pour, then break/open the sprue plate when the excess hardens - sounds like I'm going too fast...

Thanks again!

[44man]

It just takes a few seconds longer. Once you get the perfect pace, just keep it up.
You are doing a great job.

[btroj]

In the end it doesn't matter what you eyes say, it only matters what the gun says.

They look pretty good to me. Now load some and go shooting.

[geargnasher]

It's not how long you wait to cut the sprue, it's how long you wait to open the blocks that determines how soft the boolits are when they fall out. Personally, I cut my sprues when they are still soft. Not liquid enough to smear lead on the blocks and sprue plate, but "just" soft enough to still cut by hand without a mallet by flipping the plate open with a gloved thumb. That will leave a tiny puckered crater in the middle of the base, but won't affect the way they shoot. After cutting the sprue, you can dump the boolits immedieately, or wait a couple or three seconds for the boolits to harden more. Just remember that every second that ticks by after the mould is filled, the mould is cooling, and the mould needs to plenty hot for the boolits to fill out correctly. If you slow your pace down, you might start getting rounded edges, so if you wait more for the boolits to cool before opening the blocks, you might need to make that time up elsewhere getting the mould filled with lead again.

Anyway, I think your boolits look fine, good fillout and sharp edges, so lube em', load 'em, and shoot 'em!

Gear

[williamwaco]

2) Discoloration.

I cannot see any in the pictures you posted but - I have wondered about it for over 50 years and have no idea what causes it. I can tell you this:

It is more common with iron molds than with aluminum.

It is more common with bottom pour than with ladled bullets.

It is unpredictable. It happens some time and not others even with the same mold and the same pot of metal.

It does not seem to be related to temprature.

I have never seen it with straight Linotype so it may be related to certain alloys. ( Or that may just be a coincidence because I rarely use Linotype. )

It has no measurable effect on handgun bullet accuracy.

I have sorted rifle bullets from the same batch into discolored and not discolored. There is no difference in weight or diameter. I can detect no difference in accuracy. If there is any, it is very small.

And two surprises I learned in typing this answer:
It fades significantly over time.
It is VERY hard to photograph.

This is what I mean by discoloration:

[geargnasher]

Williamwaco, I attribute that "discoloration" to tin oxide or skin. I call it "tin patches", and it's common like you say with a bottom-pour where the lead stream is often exposed to as much as a half-inch of free air before going into the mould. It seems to occur with alloys containing a significant amount of tin (about 2% is the worst IME) yet some antimony too. Commonly wheel weight metal with about 1-2% tin added does it. Binary lead-tin alloys and alloys like pure lino that are pretty close to being eutectic don't seem to be as prone to the tin patches as lopsided ternary alloys with long mush phases are. My theory is the tin that flash-oxidizes on the surface of the molten stream (providing the oxide barrier to the lead and making it more fluid so it casts better) and that oxide skin gets pushed against the surface of the cavities.

If you want to eliminate it, use argon or argon/C02 mix to purge the cavites and contact pour with a rowel ladle like Lyman makes.

Gear

[williamwaco]

Williamwaco, I attribute that "discoloration" to tin oxide or skin. I call it "tin patches", and it's common like you say with a bottom-pour where the lead stream is often exposed to as much as a half-inch of free air before going into the mould. It seems to occur with alloys containing a significant amount of tin (about 2% is the worst IME) yet some antimony too. Commonly wheel weight metal with about 1-2% tin added does it. Binary lead-tin alloys and alloys like pure lino that are pretty close to being eutectic don't seem to be as prone to the tin patches as lopsided ternary alloys with long mush phases are. My theory is the tin that flash-oxidizes on the surface of the molten stream (providing the oxide barrier to the lead and making it more fluid so it casts better) and that oxide skin gets pushed against the surface of the cavities.

If you want to eliminate it, use argon or argon/C02 mix to purge the cavites and contact pour with a rowel ladle like Lyman makes.

Gear

Gear,


To eliminate it - Curiously, a little less than a year ago, I cast about 1000, .375449s for my then new .38-55. I sorted them in to perfects and culls. Tossed the culls into my re-melt box then sorted the perfects into perfect vs discolored.

I had about 3-4 hundred discolored bullets. I began accuracy testing with the idea of shooting a great many groups with perfects, then changing to the discoloreds to see if there was a measurable difference in accuracy. ( All groups are fired with bullets that are weighed to +/- 0.4 grains. )

I had not opened one of those boxes until today. That was because because I wanted a photo of a discolored bullet to post to this discussion. Would you believe it? 95% of the discoloration was gone? I looked through over 200 bullets and only found 6 with enough discoloration that I thought I could photograph it. Three of those refused to show up in the photos.

I have no actual metalurgical training ot knowledge. I tried to read about that stuff in the Lyman cast bullet manuals and it just glazed my eyes.

You clearly have a much better understanding about that than I do. I would be interested in hearing your theory on "Where are the missing spots"?

[G__Fred]

I am new to casting as well but learning from a veteran. If the bullet is solid and sound, I'll load and fire it!

However, my friend has examined some of my castings and has stated that the lead (and mould) can be "too hot" or "too cold".

Cold - Streaks and miss-formations in the bullet.
Hot - Good formation but grey or cloudy in color.

As stated, I am running on the inexpensive path (ok, cheap).
Since I don't sell cast bullets, if they are a reload-able shape, I am good to go!

[geargnasher]

WW, look in the bottom of your box very carefully for grey dust. I'll bet it just flaked off over time in storage with the variances in temperature and humidity. Or possibly it absorbed moisture and became much less visible. Take a boolit that has no evidence of the white patches remaining and wipe it gently on a clean cloth, does the cloth turn black? It may still be there, just not showing up the same as when they were cast.

Gear

[williamwaco]

WW, look in the bottom of your box very carefully for grey dust. I'll bet it just flaked off over time in storage with the variances in temperature and humidity. Or possibly it absorbed moisture and became much less visible. Take a boolit that has no evidence of the white patches remaining and wipe it gently on a clean cloth, does the cloth turn black? It may still be there, just not showing up the same as when they were cast.

Gear

Good thoughts.

Fortunately I buy carboard boxes to store them in and these were stored in a brand new unused box. There is no sign of any residue or dust in the bottom of the box. That said, the discoloration, what ever it is, is so thin that if it all flaked off several hundered bullets, I am not sure it would make enough "dust" to be visible.

Next, I wiped about half a dozen bullets with a clean white paper towel. I enclosed the nose of the bullet - everything in front of the first driving band - in the paper, gripped it gently and twisted the bullet around twice in the paper.

Not surprisingly it polished the clean parts of the bullet. Some what more surprising to me is the fact that it made the already dimmed discoloration even dimmer and in some cases removed it completely. This surprised me because I have tried to rub off the discoloration on several past occasions while inspecting bullets and was never able to do so.

There was no visible discoloration of the white paper. Two of the six, each left one very small particle. It was not noticable to the naked eye but easily visible with a 10x glass. It appeard to be lead.

[Phat Man Mike]

I'd have a problem with all of those boolit's ! they would all be down range and need to be remelted back into shape! that's one of the thing's about a range in your back yard. ( nice looking bunch you have there!) and welcome to the group!