1891 mauser project

[autofix4u]

So I have this old sporterized 1891 Argentine, stock cut barrel pitted beyond being able to hold a decent "pattern". I love the lines on the 91, I have a coupe that shoot awesome, so I just cant let this one waste away.
To start I had heard horror stories about getting the old barrel off (its been on there over 100 years). So I mounted it in my trusty reciver wrench and held the wrench in my vice and took my 24" pipe wrench to the barrel expecting a fight. It came right off, mabe 75-100 ftlbs.
I know the barrel shank on the is diffrent that other small ring Mausers so after some measuring I find its .070" longer .
I have a FN take off barrel thats never been fired in cal 30-06........
Thats a little more than I want on a small ring action...
30-06 fits in the mag, feeds well?....
I decided to go ahead since I have to turn the shank down and rethread anyway, I took .040" off the breech end of the chamber.
The barrel now fitted to the reciver, head space not an issue since I will be forming brass, and the bolt wont close on a factory 06 round. What say you all good idea or not? I will see if I can get some pics later.

[Doble Troble]

You've got a wildcat. There's no chance that after your passing someone will be able to chamber an -06 loaded max. Someone will be able to chamber the expected 7.65 x 53 though -which probably would be safe (firing a full-on -06 probably would be too). I'd specify in your will that this rifle be buried with you and, in the mean time, that you don't loan it out.

Those '91 Argies are beautiful examples of the gunmaker's art - and an example that art can be mass-produced.

[bcp477]

Why not ? Glad you had a barrel on hand - and got it to fit. Just do be SURE to keep the loads well under normal (SAAMI spec) 30-06 loads. The military 7.62 x 53 was normally loaded to a max of 35,000 - 40,000 psi, in that era. Standard commercial 06 loadings run upwards of 60,000 psi, these days.

[Multigunner]

I've miked pulled bullets from some relic 7.65X53 and found them to be gently tapered.
The base was .314 but the body of the bullet tapered to .312 just in front of the crimping cannelure. So this milspec ammo at least was intended to allow for variations in bore size or bores partly choked with metal fouling.

A .312 bullet in a .3085 bore would raise pressures by a noticable degree ( about 7-8% according to what a former Ruger employee posted about a test run on .303 chambered rifles with .308 barrels), but the 7.65X53 isn't a hot cartridge so the increase is unlikely to be beyond the safety margin of the action.
Mauser actions of this general time period were normally proofed to 58,000 CUP, with the pressures for Model 98 actions raised to (IIRC) 74,000 or possibly 78,000 CUP a bit later on.

The information I found years ago on turn of the century German proof testing expressed the figures in Metric Atmospheres so I'm not sure if I got the figures down exactly right..

PS
Get a set of stamps and mark the barrel using your own nick name for your wildcat .30 caliber. This should prevent errors by any one that gets a hold of the rifle in later years.

[leadman]

P.O. Ackley was of the opinion that the 91 was strong enough for a 308 Win. I would not feel real comfortable with that knowing what some will load it to. The 300 Savage would be a great fit.
Nothing says you can't have your own wildcat so just mark it well and if you think someone may want to load for it after you are gone write down the particulars and keep it with the rifle.

[autofix4u]

As soon as I think of a name for my new wildcat cal I will stamp it on the barrel. As for loads I plan to keep them in the 7.65x53 range.

All of my rifles have there own log book with a photo of the rifle on the cover, contains ID info for rifle with several photos, Load data and info on brass forming if needed. All of my children are aware of my system.
I have no fears of someone not knowing what is there after my passing, but if they overload it its there own fault..... The info is there.

As for the 1891 being able to handle the pressures of a modern round I am of the opinion that they can, Having grown up with one in the house chambered in 22-250.. Dad still has it but its due for a rebarrel after about 30 years of hard use. Now would I put a 22-250 on one now...... NO. There are better actions to build on that can hande a case failue without tragic results for the rifle and shooter.

[Bret4207]

Anyone that has ever used Normas 7.65 loadings will verify that the 91 is on par with at least the 308, if not a bit more. It's actually a wonderful cartridge, very well designed. Only the lack of bullet selection hampers it the versatility arena, as are all the .311 cartridges.

I used to look down on the 91 with it's clunky mag and punishing recoil (all we had was Norma). But that was back in the 70's when the 91 was a $25-50.00 rifle and we cut them down and otherwise mutilated many of these excellent rifles, mores the shame. Owning an an issued specimen now, I feel almost ashamed at the deeds was did in our ignorance. The 91 in rifle form carries like a graceful muzzle loader almost and will usually shoot the nit off a gnats neck as far as your eyes will take you.

Lovely rifles from a different time.

[Larry Gibson]

I've measured the psi of some original milsurp 7.65x53 ammunition, including some original FN 35 Belgian ammunition. The Belgian and the Argentine ammuntions run 53 -55,000 psi as measured in my M91 with the Oehler M43. Hornady factory (imported) also runs in the 53-54,000 psi range. Norma runs a little higher in the 55-56,000 psi range. A lot of '06 and .308W factory ammunition runs in the same psi range. Mauser designed the SR actions to withsatnd the then MAP of the 7.65 and other military cartridges for his actions of 3900 bar's. That converts to 56,565 psi (piezo measurement) which is also the current CIP MAP for the 7.65x53 cartridge.

I've rebarreled several M91s and short chambered them with '06 and 35 Whelen reamers to create 30x57s and 35x57s. Both are excellent cartridges and dies can easily be made by simply shortening '06 and 35 Whelen standard dies. They make excellent poor man's wildcats for those excellent M91 actions.

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

My sporter 91 sees some loads with the 180gr Remington .310" RN jacketed that are over 2,500 fps with no pressure signs. I'm using AA2520 to do this. This is a max load from the older Accurate Arms loading manuals. Has worked beautifully on a couple of cow elk being dropped in their tracks.
This bullet is just a little on the small side for my bore and this may be why I get the velocity I do without any pressure signs. When I use the Hornady .312" 150gr I run into pressure signs at about the same velocity.
The 150s shoot into less than 2" at 200 yards, the 180s group about 3 1/2" to 4".

Sounds like the OP has a great method for identifying each of his rifles and loads.

I get asked questions at the range about this rifle and they can't believe something so old can shoot the way it does, especially when my groups just beat out their expensive gun.

I have an original condition 91 that the bore is worn and pitted but still shoots decent. Often thought of reboring this to a 35 cal. Guess all it takes is money!

Have fun and good shooting.

[azrednek]

I've said numerous times here and other groups but never pass an opportunity to say it again. It should apply to all shooting but NEVER shoot a 91 Mauser without good safety glasses. The 91 does not have the vent as later Mausers for gas sneaking by the cartridge. A ruptured cartridge or a poor chamber to cartridge fit will put hot burning gas right into the shooter's eye.

I was fire-forming re-formed 30-06 in my 91. Some hot burning gas sneaked by the cartridge shoulder and literally fried (no exaggeration) the right lens of my shooting glasses. If I hadn't been wearing the glasses it would have been my eyeball that got toasted.

This is my 91, some what of an oddball as it says Mauser Modelo Argentino but wears a Peruvian crest. It uses a Gew 98 type rear sight and the handguard is slightly different. The barrel was arsenal re-lined and despite the exterior pits and arsenal paint job the bore is bright and shiny. I haven't shot it in at least 20 years but used to really impress my shooting buds with the tight groups. I was using the Hornady 174gr RN that at the time was .313 but is now .312.

[azrednek]

Anyone that has ever used Normas 7.65 loadings will verify that the 91 is on par with at least the 308, if not a bit more. .

I totally agree but what gives the Argy a boost is the long barrel length. Shorten the Argy barrel the 308 has the FPS advantage. Years ago when cronys became affordable by John Q Public and the biggies all got caught with their pants down fudging on FPS claims. Norma was about the only ammo manufacture that wasn't caught stretching the truth.

[leadman]

I think it would be a toss-up between the Argy and 308 with the same barrel lengths. My sporter has a 26" barrel so have lost some of this advantage.
I built a 308 on a K98 for my son with a 22" barrel and the measured velocity of factory ammo did not measure up to specs.
Probably would come down to a close race between the individual guns.

When I first got my sporter in 1981 I used to find those larger bullets at gun shows. Worked well in my original barrel as it had a larger bore diameter.

[Larry Gibson]

The 7.65 Argie holds it's own against the .308W with comparable barrels. The larger capcity of the 7.65 means that psi can be kept within specs. Here's my confirmation target of the 150 gr Hornady SP load I use in Evita. She has a 23 3/4" barrel and shoots wonderfully. She is very handy as a "scout". I also have a strain gauge attached to her for psi testing the loads via the Oehler M43.

Larry Gibson

[autofix4u]

Well I got the 91 out today and fireformed 50 pieces of brass that I had set the sholder back on.. All went well untill i inpected the cases back at the house It appears I need a new fireing pin. about half of the cases have pirced primers.. Load was a LEE 170 gn fp over 12 grns of red dot light by a win lpp.
I was not able to test for accuacy due to not having sights on the rifle yet. I have a set of Rem 700 sight I had thought of installing. But had also ponderd puting on a Lyman or Redfield reciver sight.
What say the other cast boolit shooters, What sights do you prefer on a cast only rifle?

[leadman]

Might want to check the tip of your firing pin. I had to polish up both of mine as both my rifles pierced the primers when I got them.

I had a receiver sight on my sporter for awhile and it worked very well. Mine had the original front sight and I had to install a taller blade to get it to sight in.

Have an old Lyman on my Krag and can shoot groups around 2" at 100 yards with it.

[PatMarlin]

How does you scope mount Larry? -nice rifle-

[Larry Gibson]

How does you scope mount Larry? -nice rifle-

I modified (grinder and file) a Leupold base for a octagon ML barrel. The middle of the base fits snugly between the "ears" so I ground and filed the front so it layed flat and level on the front part of the sight base. The wide part at the rear of the Leupold base was butted against the rear of the rear sight base as a recoil shoulder. I then D&T'd a hole up front to hold the base down and drilled through the rear ladder base holes for the original pin to fit.

It is a rock solid base, allows for windage adjustment to center the scope and keeps the scope low like it needs to be for proper eye relief and spot weld of the cheek on the stock.

Larry Gibson

[TRX]

Something I posted elsewhere, but relevant to this discussion.

---
a piece of history

I dug my 1891 Mauser out the other day. I haven't shot it since... uh... 1987, best as I can figure. I have about 60 rounds of homemade 7.65x53 I loaded about the same time. One box of 20 has the characteristic round shoulders left by the swaging die that reforms .30-'06 brass to 7.65. The shoulders don't get crisp until the round is fired once.

1891:

In the American West, the Dalton Gang was in the news.

In the citified east, Thomas Alva Edison gave the first demonstration of moving pictures via his new "kinetoscope."

In the village of Ranshofen in the Austro-Hungarian Empire, a boy named Adolf turned two. His parents went to church and prayed for his health; he was their fourth child. Two boys and a girl had all died before reaching their third year.

In the Third Republic of France, Michelin patented the pneumatic tire.

In Imperial Russia, Tsar Alexander's armorers approved the "3-line rifle, Model 1891," though production was not scheduled to start until the next year. He also started construction of the Trans-Siberian Railway.

In the British Empire, "The Strand" in London printed the first Sherlock Holmes story. Across town, Freidrich Engels was finishing up "Das Kapital" after the death of its original writer, his friend Karl Marx.

In the Second Reich of Germany, an inspector in the ultra-modern steam-powered, gaslit Mauser-Werke factory in Berlin drove a hardened steel stamp into the barrel of a rifle. It marked the rifle as proofed by the authority of His Imperial and Royal Majesty Wilhelm the Second, by the Grace of God, German Emperor and King of Prussia.


And now, 120 years later and on a different continent, that same rifle is leaning against the side of my desk. The Reich and the House of Hohenzollern are no more, and Mauser-Werke exists only as a brand name in a corporate conglomerate. It has been a quarter of a century since it was last fired. But when I settle it onto the sandbag at the range next week, I expect it will perform flawlessly, as it always has before.


There are few modern sporting rifles that match the Model of 1891 as far as quality of construction. The 1891 wasn't designed for sale to individuals, but to governments, in an era when rifles were still considered a capital investment, and were expected to last indefinitely. I have never found the price the 1891 sold for, or then-current exchange rate between the Reich and government of Argentina, but I expect that rifle cost at least the same as a year's pay for the soldier who carried it. By modern standards the detail on the 1891 is insane; the magazine follower is whittled out of bar stock and polished, and the blue job... of course, the 1891 was designed for export, and "pretty" is always a selling point, even for military weapons. The Model of 1891 isn't "better quality" than my Romanian AK-47; I expect the Romy will perform just as reliably on its 120th birthday. The two rifles are the end products of very different engineering decision trees, their only real similarity being that they both shoot a .311 diameter bullet.

Even knowing that, I still love the smooth snick of the polished, oiled Mauser parts sliding against each other. That feel doesn't make it shoot any better, but I bet it impressed that long-ago Argentine purchasing agent as much as it does me. "This is a firearm of the highest quality, one that our soldiers will be proud to carry, that will serve our nation reliably for many years to come."

[PatMarlin]

Well I finally bought one. Shoulda got one before they started going up, but never saw one I liked.

May have paid on the high side, but I haven't seen one as nice and they want a whole lot more money for the others I've seen. I'd rather pay $100 or so over for something I like.

Should be a good shooter.

[PatMarlin]

I modified (grinder and file) a Leupold base for a octagon ML barrel. The middle of the base fits snugly between the "ears" so I ground and filed the front so it layed flat and level on the front part of the sight base. The wide part at the rear of the Leupold base was butted against the rear of the rear sight base as a recoil shoulder. I then D&T'd a hole up front to hold the base down and drilled through the rear ladder base holes for the original pin to fit.

It is a rock solid base, allows for windage adjustment to center the scope and keeps the scope low like it needs to be for proper eye relief and spot weld of the cheek on the stock.

Larry Gibson

So do you remove the sight when you want to use the peep, or do you just use the scope now?