Newbie - Spit Substitutes ? Lubing after dry ? and Sizing afterwards ?

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

martinibelgian - Most interesting...

I have had two people on this very Forum (and the Castboolits Forum) tell me to do
just what I am doing and that not crimping works well for them and that four wraps
works for them.

I have a friend who shoots competition BP (with a Sharps) who also does
not crimp his Brass and he does not paper patch at all (GG).

Then another friend of mine insists that what you said is the case - I need
back pressure, so I should crimp !

Damned if I do - damned if I don't....Ha !

Ha ! Who's right, who's wrong ?
"Who's on first, What's on second, I Don't Know is on third !", Abbott & Costello.
OK...who's on second ? No - Who's on first, What's on second...on and on....

I will see....
If I need to crimp, then I should see residue around the outside of the neck.
But my case necks are already fire formed to the maximum neck diameter of
the rifle's throat.

I have considered what would happen had I wrapped the outside necks of my new Jameson Brass
with one or two wraps of masking tape, then fire formed it ?
I'd have to dewrap them and rewrap them for each time I reload, but Lord - PP'ing and Lube
Cookying and etc and etc is enough already !

I don't have a second Martini-Henry...this one is the only one I am shooting them from.

At the range I am told that some competitors push the bullet into the barrel and then
load the filled case and fire - then reload that same case right then and there and compete
that way !

My next BP rifle will be a Sharps or a Springfield Trapdoor - not another Martini.
I am too "not rich' to afford a second Martini-Henry.
Right now, the Sharps and/or Springfield are a long way off - given the situation
with our economy.

Pray for a good Republican to win the election ! Not a RINO, either !
...is there a good Republican ?

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DB,

I NEVER said crimp - no need to crimp - ever!. I said necksize, totally different!

And both are right - but for different rifles:

In my match rifle, I use fireformed, unsized brass, bullet is a pretty loose fit - BUT when loaded, the bullet is touching the rifling (actually more than touching, the 1st bullet band is engraved). This provides initial resistance upon firing. Like your friend with his Sharps.

BUT in a military 577-450 martini, it is pretty much impossible to seat the bullet touching the rifling - so no initial resistance from the bullet hard against the lands. Therefore, you'll need another way to create that initial resistance - i.e. necksize the case and seat the bullet tight in the case neck.

However, the common element for both is - initial bullet resistance upon ignition
Why, you will ask? Well, you don't want the primer to bump the bullet out of the case before the powder has really ignited and built up some pressure. That will give you more consistency.

The goal is identical, but the means to get there is different. So in a way, both are right - but for different rifles/cartridges.

But don't crimp, crimping is not good, shortens brass life (and a roll crimp won't add all that much to bullet pull either). Necksizing is the best way to go in a military 577-450. these do require some different techniques from the typical BP rifle.

Easy? Not nearly.... Frustrating? Sometimes... Rewarding when it finally starts to shoot? You bet!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Neck size to what ?

Fire formed, my necks are 0.476 (mol) in diameter.

The nominal size to shoot (GG) is .468.

Paper Patched - what size ? How do I seat the bullet then without tearing apart
the patch as it seats ?

My LEE FL sizing die reduces the neck down something fierce !
Maybe I could lap it to open it up, but I am reluctant to do anything like that
until I learn more about this rifle's peculiarities.

How long will my Brass last if I go from .476 down to even .468 each time
I shoot this old lady ?

I am doing what I am doing to keep from eating up $3.40 each cartridges...

You may be perfectly right, then again she might shoot fine this way.
I have to shoot her more to find out. God Save the Queen !

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

Over the years I have tried just about everything that can be tried to get certain rifles to maintain consistent accuracy and within the latest 5 years of shooting BPCR here at home I have burned lots of BP.....and the mound on my range has seen nothing but PP bullets for the above stated time. Shooting PP bullets I finally discovered IN MY RIFLES....using a slight taper crimp gives me the consistent accuracy I desire....WITHOUT FLIERS and I get a MUCH CLEANER BURN! Back when I was shooting 'greasers' I never used any type of crimp as I partially sized the cases to give me the neck tension I desired. The neck tension I was using then was such that it also gave clean burns. I am of the opinion that BP needs some resistance to precipitate a clean burn...as well as consistent accuracy! Just my opinion based upon much shooting and accuracy testing! Shooting and obtaining desired accuracy with a BPCR is not much different than shooting modern rifles in that there generally (not always) will be one load/bullet that the rifle will shoot more accurately than many others; this being an axiom throughout the BPCR world with many shooters. I have tested on many days with good shooting conditions both non crimped (loose fitting bullets) and the same loading with lightly taper crimped loads and consistently I get better groups using the latter....no matter the range fired! The below group was fired with my 50 2 1/2 using a 720 gr. PP bullet using 114 grs. Swiss 1F from 1000 yds. All shots could have been inside the 20" diameter 10 ring plate had I been shooting for score...which I wasn't! I was testing the above loading for vertical dispersion and it is well within what I call acceptable accuracy! This particular rifle/loading combination has shot groups akin to this more than just a few times I might add. All loaded PP cartridges are given a light taper crimp and if not done so....it would be damn difficult to keep the shots on the mainframe!! Ask me how I know! My Shiloh 45 2 7/8 requires the same light taper crimp with all ammo loaded also!

DocBill....my opinion to you is you can read and post on this forum until you die at the monitor but in the final analysis you're gonna have to spend possibly lots of range time and trigger pulling before you decide....who's on 3rd! It also pays very well to have a BS filter installed and then you'll be able to decide fact from fiction!!


10shots by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

[Lead pot]

Rick,

How is that 110 shooting since you recut the lead?
Haven't heard you talk about it.

[RMulhern]

Rick,

How is that 110 shooting since you recut the lead?
Haven't heard you talk about it.

Kurt

Better than it ever has!! No paper rings...no frickin leading either!! Over the past 10 days (too dang warm to shoot earlier) I have been getting hunting zeros with it all the way back to 500 and I'm shickled titless with it! I'm shooting a 530 gr. BACO PP MB at 1-40 using 102 grs. KIK 2F and I get no wild/unexplained shots. Patched bullet is .4470" and seating it .140" into the Norma case. Using the little trick you told me about earlier....reference applying just a tat of taper crimp to the case after seating the upper wad before inserting the bullet works dandy!! I then apply a very light TC and saying it works well for accuracy is a slight under-statement!! Rdnck is sending me some bullets to try with a flat meplat that I'm also going to try. He shipped them today so I should have them maybe tomorrow.

Hook up that camper you've got and as they say on TV....COME ON DOWN!! I'll expose you to some good fried catfish and raw oysters! Bring ammo!!

[Lead pot]

The Doctors have me tied down right now cant even pick up the Sharps.
I'm all for the catfish but toe Oysters sort of reminds me of what I cough up. I could never re swallow what I coughed up

[RMulhern]

The Doctors have me tied down right now cant even pick up the Sharps.
I'm all for the catfish but toe Oysters sort of reminds me of what I cough up. I could never re swallow what I coughed up

Hope things improve soon for you! The oysters?? Naw...they slide down like greased lightening! Just lay one on a saltine cracker, sprinkle a little Tabasco sauce on....and down it goes!

Got ya on my prayer list!! Hang tuff!!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

RMulhern - I must admit that I have never used a "Taper" Crimp and so I had
to go here to learn:
http://www.chuckhawks.com/adjust_reloading_dies.htm
and read the last part of it.

I then pulled out my LEE 577/450 Dies set and went about attempting it.

This is what resulted.





The crimping die finds my Paper Patch too large to fit the PP Slug w/o crushing
the paper to some extent.

The pp'ed slug wants to get stuck in the die unless I crimp the brass enough to grab the bullet.
Then I get what you see. It is rather tight in there.

Look at the right cartridge.

Is this what you were describing, or isn't that an actual crimp on the very end ?
Not sure I can do a 'taper' crimp with this die set.
Yup, the paper patch gets cut off by the end crimp.....
Am I doing this incorrectly ?

DoctorBill

PS - That thing in the upper left side of the first photo is an Overall Length measuring
device I make for all my reloading dies set to the maximum length for each
cartridge.
Made from my old plastic parking passes where I teach.
For the 577/450 it is cut to 79mm max length.

[Lead pot]

You have a roll crimp on your round.
The cartridge on the left has a proper taper crimp. The two 50 cal on the right have a light roll crimp.

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

So how does one obtain a Taper Crimp - is that another special die ?

Or do I do or have something done to my LEE Die ?

Endless.....

DoctorBill

[Lead pot]

If I need to have a die made that I dont have a reamer for I dont go to Lee I send a couple cases here with the dimensions I need and they will make it for me.
http://www.ch4d.com/

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Ahhh yes. So there goes another $100 more or less....endless.

I knew I couldn't get off the hook inexpensively.

Back to where I was.

So the LEE die has a curve at the very top end that pushes the brass in and
forms that crimp ?
Or is the taper angle too sharp with the LEE Die ?

BTW - 450 grains of lead bullet inertia wouldn't act as a resistance to the
'exploding' BP - you need a taper crimp also ?

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

DocBill

No....there are other ways to get resistance against the bullet...as to your question of the 450 grs. giving 'enough inertia'! You can patch to slightly over-bore diameter and seat the bullet deeper whereby the paper rides into the lands akin to how you would load a 'greaser'; this method requires that you seat the bullet deeply into the case I might add. First it's best to find your true bore diameter and THEN......use a PP BULLET DESIGNED to fit the paper you're going to use to match your bullet to bore diameter if....you're going to patch to bore diameter. You also have to take into consideration the INTERIOR diameter of the mouth of the case. Ideally...if you're going to go the bore-diameter route....some folks patch such that when the round is chambered and extracted land marks can be observed upon the patch paper. Other shooters shoot UNDER BORE DIAMETER bullets which is what I do as I have found that my rifles perform best that way. In this method I partially resize my Norma cases such that the interior diameter of the case mouth is as close to the diameter of my bullets as possible such that they will just fit into the case by hand seating and then I use the taper crimp die to align the inserted bullet as near as possible to the longitudinal axis of the cartridge case without having any 'slop'. The TCD assist in this endeavor!

And no...you cannot use a standard seating die to apply a taper crimp! This takes a taper crimp die...if that's what you desire to do! A 'roll crimp' turns the top of the case mouth inward and that won't work! Follow Leadpot's advice! He knows what to do. He shoots a BN cartridge and probably has forgotten more about this than most people will ever know!!

[martinibelgian]

Rick,

Not in his case - he shoots a miltiary 577-450 Martini, that has an grossly oversize chamber followed by a looooong, tapered leade - he needs to shoot groove+ diameter, even in PP. Moreover, lots of bullet in that big case is a plus , there's really too much room in there (100+ grains in a military rifle really hurts too much for fun...).
Odds are that he wouldn't even be able to seat the bullet out enough to engage the rifling. This is a military chamber designed for foil cases with lots of slop, and made to work with lots of crud and fouling...

DB,
Neck sizing (or taper crimping) will indeed work your brass - which is why you need to anneal it frequently. That will stop it from splitting, and make it last longer. Now you have another subject to read up on...

But I hope you did notice everyone telling you that you need some initial resistance. And the bit about the BS filter was also true...

Both Kurt and Rick are pretty experienced shooters who know what works and what not - even though some things cannot be applied to your Martini Henry.

[Buckshot]

...............DoctorBill, your "Sticktoitiveness" is to be applauded The thing to do to make it as simple as possible is to look at how the British did it in the first place, and why they did it the way they did. Naturally there were trade offs. They probably gave up a bit of ultimate accuracy for something else? Possibly making the cartridges more 'Transportable' ie: less apt to come apart in handeling, and better able to stand weather like heat, cold and rain. Remember they shipped them all over the world to their troops. Then they'd have to be shipped in wagons, etc & etc untill issued to troops.

I know of BPC shillhuette shooters were the boolit is barely retained in the case, and cases aren't resized at all. Not good for soldiers, handleing, or dampness. On page 3 of this thread you have cutaways of the British load. It clearly shows what they used to 'giterdone'. Might not have been the best for any particular purpose but due to their very thourogh testing, this was the best overall compromise. I'd mentioned in my previous post that I was gifted five loaded Kynoch 577-450 M-H cartridges. They were very similar to your photo's with the main exception being they were loaded with long strands of cordite smokless powder. I sacrificed one to get measurements.

The boolit weighed 481 grs and was patched with green paper. The paper was .0025" thick and consisted of 2 wraps, and was 'waxy' on it's external surface. The naked slug's OD was .459"on it's parallel surface and the boolit was 1.245" long.

From the base up, the width of the patch was .770", leaving .550" of bare lead tapering to a RN. Of that .770" width, .355" was inside the caseneck.

The boolit's base was cupped. The flat outer rim was .070" wide, and the cup's OD was .319" and was .045" deep. The naked slug had obviously been swaged, and had 2 cannelures rolled into it. Both cannelures were .050" wide and looked exactly like those 'toothed' cannelures rolled into some jacketed bullets, as if rolled on with a toothed wheel. The bottom of the first cannelure was .120" up from the base. The bottom of the top cannelure was .270" from the base. The caseneck had a .230" wide Taper Crimp.

The caseneck at the shoulder checked .507" OD. At the base or bottom of the taper the caseneck OD was .505". At the casemouth, the case OD was .500", midpoint between the 2 it was .503". Where the taper crimp began was obvious. The patched slug bore easily seen evidence of this taper crimp, with the position of the casemouth have formed a definitive 'ledge'. With the paper removed for measurements of the naked slug, the taper was also easily seen, as would be expected. In your photo of the cartridge loaded with BP, instead of the smokless load's taper crimp, they placed a very obvious roll (wheel) crimp into the caseneck somewhat above the boolit's base.

Under the PP'd boolit was nothing except a single card disc weighing 6.7 grs, .130" thick and having an OD of .465"



Speaking of neck sizing, the above photo more clearly shows the type of neck sizing I apply to my 577-450 cases (on the left). The case has been fired and not yet necksized, but the remnant of it's previous sizing is evident. That silver looking thing isn't a cartridge case but an adaptor used ot allow the firing of 45 Colt's in the Martini. The 45-70 case is just there to show WHY an adaptor to allow 45-70's to be fired isn't practicable, as a few of us were arguing the subject at the time. As previously mentioned, the neck sizer was made from a modified Lee 458 Win mag FL size die.



More on neck sizing, I was also tired of seeing the oversizing taking place in my 40-65 Rem RB. Since I'd purchased Redding insert type neck only dies and assorted inserts for my 308 rifle, I figured why not make a similar deal for the 40-65? And eventually for the 38-55 too. LEFT PHOTO: There is merely a threaded die body that's internally bored to accept the sizer ring from the top, and a ledge to stop it. Then you have the sizer ring and to the right is the stop/depth adjuster cap. Via threading in the die and/or the placement of the cap you may controll the depth of the sizing that takes place. RIGHT PHOTO: Simply a closeup of the insert showing the rounded radius of the leade. It was hardened as hard as the hubs of heck, then honed to size.



The above photo's show the results of the neck sizer on fired 40-65's. Nothing on the body at all is touched. The right photo shows how even the sizing is performed around the case. After the case is neck sized, all that's required is the merest hint of a flare to ease the boolit (GG in this case) into the case. There is .003" of grip and the boolit's are seated to engrave the lands.



The above is a a swaged PP'd slug for my 38-55. This boolit was the intitial OAL length slug. If it looks a bit odd on it's left side toward the nose was because it'd been dropped on a concrete floor Since I was looking for engraving into the patch it didn't matter. These cases are the Starline 2.125" cases.



The first batch of 10 for testing. After initial fireforming they were partially sized no more then needed via backing the size die out. If you look closely you can see the tiny bit of flare remaining at the mouth. These 10 rou nd produced a .875" group at 100 yards. Well, to be honest one leaked out and opened things up a teensy, so 9 went .875".

You're going to have to look at necksizing only, and think about annealing your casenecks on occassion to help the brass live. With the correct necksizing and a faint flare, you might be able to get away without a crimp. Personally, I'm more partial to smokless then BP. As mentioned most of my Bertrams have over 25 firings on'em and some over 30 without a single lost case yet. I do have some Jamisson brass but haven't fired the first of the 577-450 flavor, and of the 577 Snider cases I've only fired 20 of'em once. I still kind of favor the Mag-Tech 24 ga hulls.

...............Buckshot

[RMulhern]

MIB

Yep...I forgot he's shooting a Zulu Special!!

Rick,

Not in his case - he shoots a miltiary 577-450 Martini, that has an grossly oversize chamber followed by a looooong, tapered leade - he needs to shoot groove+ diameter, even in PP. Moreover, lots of bullet in that big case is a plus , there's really too much room in there (100+ grains in a military rifle really hurts too much for fun...).
Odds are that he wouldn't even be able to seat the bullet out enough to engage the rifling. This is a military chamber designed for foil cases with lots of slop, and made to work with lots of crud and fouling...

DB,
Neck sizing (or taper crimping) will indeed work your brass - which is why you need to anneal it frequently. That will stop it from splitting, and make it last longer. Now you have another subject to read up on...

But I hope you did notice everyone telling you that you need some initial resistance. And the bit about the BS filter was also true...

Both Kurt and Rick are pretty experienced shooters who know what works and what not - even though some things cannot be applied to your Martini Henry.

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My new "heading" for posting in this thread is above, because...

I am somewhat educated and somewhat confused by what has been said here.

Some of what has been said here does not apply to my "Zulu Special" as it has been rightly called.

1. My fire formed Jameson Brass Case Necks measure .474 to .478 Internal Diameter (ID). Large Chamber !

2. The barrel is the standard Martini-Henry Mk II .468 nominal bore (7 sided polygonal rifling). In good shape.

3. My cases are much, much too expensive to be resizing down from .475 (average) to .460 (mol)
every time I shoot. I want them to last a long time.

4. I am planning to order a Taper Crimping Die when I accumulate some more money !
I do need to figure out exactly WHAT dimensions I need to order to accomplish the above.
That depends on the bullet I finally choose to use.

5. My machinist friend has offered to Mill Open a second LEE 457-450 Mold that I just purchased
to whatever I want. I am thinking that a straight sided .462 would be about right.
That is - he will mill straight down to the ogive (or less) leaving a straight sided bullet that I will then paper patch
to the diameter I want (.468 for now). It might go up to 500 grains ! Not going for GG bullets.

The Image below was created by me via PhotoShop - it does not exist yet ! I'm not Walt Disney...

...........................Can't decide on which one yet.

That will have cost me just $19 for the mold instead of $120 plus shipping from the Australian outfit.

6. I have 30 rounds loaded up as I have previously posted and will go to the range today
and see what they do at 50 meters. I am not a good enough shot to test them at 100 meters...yet.

7. I am trying different loading components right now. See my last post on them.
I have to have some consistent load to use before I vary anything else.

Given all the above 'boundry conditions', I am left with the goal of finding a Final Bullet to use
(paper patched) and obtaining a Taper Crimp Die to hold it in the case.

I have to do what will work best for my "Zulu Special" and fit within my modest budget.

DoctorBill

I don't think I should have purchased that LEE Three Die Set - I don't use it at all with this rifle....
anyone want to buy it for $90 plus shipping ?

[martinibelgian]

DoctorBill,

A patched diameter of .468 to .470 sounds about right. I would also give those 4-wrap bullets a test, you never know - after all, Henry rifling is pretty deep.
Consider what happens when you pull the trigger:
The bullet - assuming enough neck tension - will slug up almost immediately to throat diameter (.480 - .490) to be gently swaged down in the 1st tapered part of the barrel (about 1/3) while going up the bore. A .459 bullet will needs to deform MUCH more than a bullet that is bigger to start with
To make your brass last, anneal it - frequently. Annealing prevents stress cracking, and your brass will last as long as your primer pockets, even with necksizing.... And if you're necksizing from .475 to .470, that's really light.
And don't forget - it's the trip that will give you the pleasure, not the goal!
As a temp solution, try those loads and see what gives. - but to get the best out of it, you'll need to get some neck tension on that bullet.
A good bullet? about 480-500grains, no borerider, .468-.470 diameter, pretty short nose to keep bullet short enough, bur bearing surface as long as possible - IOW, how a 45-70 should NOT be.
And don't forget the main point - have fun!

[Baron von Trollwhack]

As a latent suggestion now that you are ready to start the chase, take lots of before and after firing dimensional measurements of the cases. Try to note also any barrel leading, where it is, how it is, how the lube is helping and of course whether it was warm,cold,dry, humid, hot barrel, slow firing cadence, etc..

Think what appeared to be a positive influence and what did not. Did the patch appear like a powdery mist as the bullet cleared the barrel, or did you find shreds on the target. Use a big paper to catch the bullets so not a shot is wasted. Track the firing progression of hits on a clean target

Keep your fingers crossed in between trigger work.

BvT