Newbie - Spit Substitutes ? Lubing after dry ? and Sizing afterwards ?

[RMulhern]

My way!



Accurate BPCR Paper Patch Bullets


The following photos show how I get great accuracy from my 45 2 7/8 Shiloh rifle. I cast these 525 gr. 1-20 alloy bullets from a Buffalo Arms Co. PP Money Bullet mould. The bullets...as cast come out of the mould at a diameter of .446" and I then run them through a Fred Cornell .4445" sizing die. I then wet patch with a paper of .0022" thickness, dry them on a warming plate and when dry, I apply a light film of lube to the exterior of the patch and then run them back through the same sizing die which brings them down to a finished OD of .4470". These are then inserted atop a .060" veggie wad which sits below the mouth of the case .140". The BP is previously compressed to a depth that will give me the .140" dimension at the top of the case; included above the powder and sitting atop it is a .030" veggie wad and betwixt the two veggie wads is a lube cookie of .240" thickness! The below photo shows a patched bullet sitting atop the push rod before I run it up into the sizing die!


SwageOp by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

Bullet upon partial exit from Fred Cornell sizing die:


SwageOp2 by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

Loaded cartridges with view of others waiting to have bullet seated. Before seating the bullet I run the as seen below cases with wads showing into a taper crimp die for a PARTIAL TAPER which allows me to seat the patched bullet without having a lot of 'slop' betwixt the exterior of the bullet and interior of the case. When the bullet is fully seated with base against the wad...I then give the case the final very slight taper crimp!


RFS by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

Photo of hot plate which is nothing other than a device made to fit under an RCBS sizing/lube tool designed to warm lube for bullet sizing!


Hotplate by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

My finished bullet diameter is at .4470"; .003" UNDER bore diameter! I had been told by the Rdnck that under bore sized bullets shoot well for him but I was doubtful! It seems however that oft times it pays to listen to those that have more experience! This method works for me. Recently I got some bullets cast up at a 1-40 alloy and I fired 10 rounds this morning from 500 yards that hit pretty much dead center of a 20" clanger and I can live with that!!

[montana_charlie]

I am just starting out with Paper Patching and BPCB's. Martini-Henry Mark II.

I rolled some PP's and when I looked back several hours later they were coming
unwrapped - the paper was unwinding off the Bullet.

Let me pose the reverse question to all of you.

1 Have any of you ever recovered a bullet at the end of the range still wrapped in paper ?

Not trying to be a wise off, but some say that you want the Paper to peel off
as the bullet emerges from the barrel.

2 Does it ever not do that somewhere down range ?

You stated a problem, and asked two questions.
First, answers to your questions understanding that my wet patches are dampened with plain water, sometimes I patch with dry paper, and my paper is 25% cotton onoinskin. Paper made by Seth Cole is very popular among black powder paper patchers, and (I'm pretty sure) it has no cotton fiber at all.

1. In the winter, I shoot PP bullets into snowbanks so I can see their condition from being fired. Sometimes they are fired at short range (like thirty yards) and occassionally at a hundred yards.
I have never found any paper in the snow.

2. After almost every shooting session I collect paper particles for examination. The 'drop zone' will depend on the wind that day, but it is ALWAYS close to the bench ... and never substantially downrange.

As for your patches unwinding as they dry ...

First, you should determine if your paper has a 'directional grain'. The fiber in some papers is laid up with no apparent direction.

Cut a one inch strip across the top of a page, and another down the side of the page. Cut two pieces (one from each strip) that are equal in length.

Grasp the two pieces by their ends and let them droop. If they hang differently, the one which droops the most has the grain running across the width of the strip. That grain direction will wrap around a bullet most willingly, and is most likely to stay wrapped after it's dry.

Still using those two strips ...
If you lightly dampen one side of each strip, they should try to curl up. The one which curls lengthwise (forming a soda straw) has the grain running lengthwise in the strip. It will resist wrapping to some drgree, and is more likely to uncurl while drying.

Once you DO have a damp patch wrapped on a bullet, the folding of the paper over the base locks the whole wrap in position. Holding the base fold flat to the bullet as the paper dries is normally enough to assure the paper does not unroll.

If it does, it could be that
- your paper is too heavy (thick),
- is made from a fiber that is too 'springy' and won't stay curled around the bullet,
- or your bullets are too lightweight to keep the base fold flat while drying.

I did not invent any of these procedures. I learned of them by reading, and experimented with paper until I developed enough experience to make the statements above.

You may be troubled by factors I am unaware of, and therefore my advice may not help much. Also, since your paper and mine are bound to be somewhat different, your results may differ from mine.

CM

[Baron von Trollwhack]

"How comes the ones I patch never unwrap themselves spontaneously while drying?"

Do you think that if I knew that, I would be asking the question ?

I don't have 100% cotton or rag paper. Does everyone use that ?

I think I should stop doing this Forum thing.

DoctorBill

There are past threads here on sources for rag or high quality bond paper. Not everyone uses it, except the original patchers of yesterday, old incorrigibles like me, a few hardy souls and various rare wise men. This kind of paper has grain structure to stretch uniformly (if tightened uniformly) in one direction(the way it is pulled in manufacture) when wetted to a specific degree according to your batch of paper and stretched to a degree you find by a little experience.

You can learn by making the patches perfectly trapezopidal with a butt joint, then wetting and pulling the patch to you (as I do) and seeing what the overlap is by your handwork. If they dry nicely tightly with overlap you can be perfect and reduce the overlap of the cutting stencil to 0 gap until you get the hang of wet and stretch. I used an old terrycloth towel until the smooth backsides of mouse pads were invented. Then I switched. That meant wet more in the saucer(one at a time) and less as the pad was a constant for practical purposes. My patch pattern is tall enough to twist a longtail against a flat base, or tall enough to fold over a little after the patch is tolled. I stand these up on a plastic cutting board to dry, the twisty ones go nose first into a commercial shooting range trash can pick up plastic tray of some caliber or other. I think a little overlap is OK however.

With the pad in front of me I wet one paper to my liking, lay it on the pad with the point on the left, the point closest to me on the right, patch oriented long ways. Lay a bullet on the patch , nose to the left and apply the patch tip to the bullet and start rolling both to me, dragging the patch on the pad for tension when positioned correctly on the ogive. I keep the bullet in the same place so the rolling brings the patch to cover the bullet as it rotates. Heck it only takes a few hundred to get good at it( with that bullet) because the errors teach you what to look out for. Actually, I use a 45-48 degree angle on the ends not a true equal trapezoid.

Harbor freight makes a cheap papercutter for strips so I don't borrow one anymore. I cut only a few at a time. My template strips are cut from old fiberboard(almost like formica) about 1/8" thick with a razor knife, and I use the the template to cut even fewer patches at a time to help consistency.

As a deviation, I've tried various papers which were not OK.

Dang those big bore Martinis. Hard to find a reasonably big bullet to patch up. Grocery bags won't get it for them. Perhaps you can find heavier than 11-12 pound bond and a fat bullet. I seem to remember shooting three wrap PP on a 58 minie' for a Snyder though. Maybe this will help.

BvY

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My first attempt to load Paper Patched 577-450 Martini-Henry Black Powder
Cartridges.



The small strip of waxed paper is wrapped around the base of the PP'ed Cast
Bullet as a shim to make it stay in the Brass Case (,476 ID Fire Formed).



Doing 10 of them - Now for a range test.

DoctorBill

[Baron von Trollwhack]

My first attempt to load Paper Patched 577-450 Martini-Henry Black Powder
Cartridges.



The small strip of waxed paper is wrapped around the base of the PP'ed Cast
Bullet as a shim to make it stay in the Brass Case (,476 ID Fire Formed).



Doing 10 of them - Now for a range test.

DoctorBill

That shim is a wobble factor. A snug fit in the neck aligns things well. Try another wrap & size, or thicker paper on the bullet that make a snug fit on seating. I would never stick that polyester in a BP charge. How about a suitable little square of TP?

I dropped that little newspaper disc into the empty case bottom on my 43M, tubed the BP charge in, added a card stock disc, then a pea sided ball of lube for squishing flat as the patched bullet was seated to depth. A just snug push to seat with the press. Not much powder compression by force for a bottleneck case, BTW. ffg at 87 grains was better for me than fg. I used large pistol primers, no bell on the case mouth, just a little chamfer, and only sized the case neck to base level of the seated bullet.

BTW, Mr Olson's mauser book gave the contemporary shot dispersion for the 71/84. Just so you have a goal that is sort of reasonable, Can you find the Martini equivalent? To me, just dropping that waxed paper will help in the long run.


Oh, I just now see a noticeable difference in your two patched bullets, with respect to where the patch covers the ogive. Maybe , possibly, enough to make a difference where they land, eh?
BvT

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

The shim was an attempt to make up for loose PP'ed bullets to not just fall out
of the case - waxed paper.

Been trying two and three turns of various papers - they shrink after drying.
Four turns comes out too large.

It seems to be a matter of which paper type and thickness that will work best for my particular situation....

Just to keep people from recommending that I go read some more things.....
I have "The Paper jacket" on the way.
Been looking at all the links that have been recommended.

Boils down to rolling them enough so that I can do it well automatically (like walking)
and then finding the right paper for this size cast bullet and the opening in
these fire formed cases.

It will take me some time to finger all that out.

I just wanted to go shoot this baby and quit farting around on the bench for a while.

The proof is in the popping - at the range !

Everybody and his brother is giving me advice and most of it is helpful, but in the
end I have to work out what will work with my particular Martini-Henry, my Brass,
my Cast bullet, and what I have on hand - plus my club fingered ham handed abilities.

I even did a couple of the ten reloads DRY ! Not me - the Bullets....

As to the Polyester - many recommend it.
Others used Wool. The original used "Cotton Wool" as seen here:

http://www.martinihenry.com/


This is off of the Martini-Henry site. Wool is a protein - burning (hair) protein stinks !

They used Bee's Wax only as a Lube Cookie !

I've used PolyEster, Cotton, Dried Coffee Grounds and Cream of Wheat.

I won't use COW any more as it has solidified in the case shoulder for me in
some cartridges I tried in the past.

Open up an older reloaded COW case sometime and see if the COW is still a powder.

My COW had set into a hard plug - probably needs to be oven dried before use.

Coffee grounds are in any house where coffee is drunk and are of uniform size
and very low density and you normally toss them anyway.
Dry them for 30 minutes at 250° F in the oven and keep them dry in a covered wide mouth jar.

GOEX Fg was all the store had - so I bought it. We'll see......

I don't want this BPCR reloading for my MHR to become some anal Rocket Science.
Reload, shoot, adapt - relaod, shoot, adapt....until I get it right.
All of it is fun - at least until I get tired of it....
I'm pushing 69, so I'll probably croak before I get tired of it.

DoctorBill

[montana_charlie]

Boils down to rolling them enough so that I can do it well automatically (like walking)
and then finding the right paper for this size cast bullet and the opening in
these fire formed cases.

I've been playing with paper patched bullets for two years. I spent the year before that reading about it and asking questions ... gradually building an interest in the procedure.

For a few reasons, I chose to patch bullets to groove diameter instead of bore diameter. One of the advantages of that is having bullets which fit snugly in fired case mouths.

Something over a year ago, it dawned on me that I (and most others) should not follow the normal sequence where you buy a bullet mould ... then start searching for the appropriate paper.
Instead, I'll advise anyone to locate a lifetime supply of suitable paper, then procure a bullet which will create a patched package that matches the dimensions you desire ... using two wraps of paper.

I can't say anything about fillers as I have no experience with them. But, your pictured load looks like it might work for you.
It will (at least) show if you are on the right track.

CM

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Chicken Thief - While walking thru a DOLLAR STORE, I came upon something
that I thought might work well for drying wetted paper patched bullets.



This is a screened "In Mail" tray for $1 dollar.

It even has ridges running across it to hold PP'ed Bullets from rolling around.

I propped it up over my Forced Air Furnace Register to dry PP'ed Bullets
more quickly than over night.

Something I thought would appeal to any cheap dudes like me who like to shop
in the Dollar Stores.

Try to see past my poorly patched bullet and imagine many PP'ed Bullets
end to end to hold the crimped end parts flat while drying quickly.

BTW - this is an attempt for 4 rolls of Newsprint paper to get up to .476 inch dia.

Hey there, Baron von Trollwack - It sure would be nice if you had mentioned why you
"...would never stick that polyester in a BP charge." I don't like McDonald's Hamburgers myself.

Enlighten us.....

DoktorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Someone, somewhere posted that they made their Lube Cookie Slabs by
pouring the molten mixture onto water in a tray and let it solidify to make nice
flat slabs of uniform thickness.

Well, I tried that and it works very nicely !



I am trying my own variation on the vast array of Lube Cookie Recipes.

My experimental formulation is shown in the photo.
The color of the slab is what I got when I added some deep blue colored paraffin
that I just bought at Hobby Lobby here in Spokane today.

After the Lube Cookie Slab cooled, I placed the tray outside in the cold and
the Slab shrunk enough to let go of the tray and just fell out.

Nice and flat and about 7mm thick.

Been reading "Loading The Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" by Paul A. Matthews.

He said that there should NOT be anything between the Lube (Grease) Cookie and the
powder charge, so that the hot burning powder can vaporize the Lube Cookie
and then deposit it along the rifle barrel as the bullet travels down the barrel.
The Cookie should be soft enough to be vaporized by the burning powder blast.

"For the grease cookie to be effective in keeping the fouling soft, it must be mixed
with the fouling in the barrel. Placing a card wad between the powder and the
grease cookie prevents this." page 22, 4th paragraph.

"One of the best ways to protect the powder and the paper patch from migration of the
grease cookie, is to place a disc of waxed paper on both sides of the cookie."

"...the waxed paper....does not insulate the grease cookie from the powder blast,
nor does it take up the amount of room required by a card wad."

I think I'll toss the Milk Carton disks I have been putting on top of the Polyester filler over the BP.....
going to switch to Wool over the BP under the cookie and Waxed Paper under the PP'ed Bullet.

i.e. - 85 grains BP, Wool or PolyEster Filler to neck, Lube Cookie, waxed paper disk, PP Bullet.

Matthews was shooting 45-70's with straight cases, though - AND he used no filler over Pyrodex RS ! Ha !

DoctorBill

[Baron von Trollwhack]

With respect to my discrimination against Poly Ester, my first cursory review of PP mechanics indicated thet POLYESTER were not part of the cartridge assembly process that was highly successful and proven. Not in the early Sharps BN and other cartridges. Not in the Martini cartridge. Plus, in M/L shooting experience, I had to swear to the booshway I was not using polyesther patching.

Likewise there was some difference in component stacking procedues between straight cases and bottle neck cases. That old arsenal drawing of the 577-450 case and components shows that the designer did not want any compression on the powder charge as it would eventually harden BELOW THE NECK, and probably rip the case neck off on firing. Bloody hot in the East, WOT ! Especially with the early foil cases being so thin.

What to do. They could find no Poly , but did find Wooly. A little bit of Wooly would keep the charge stable in place below the neck. Now I chose to add a bit more powder in my 43M and avoid the issue by putting a thin card over the powder up in the neck a little distance above the shoulder and a square piece of TP to simply fill a little space without powder compression and take up a little space before the bullet base. I also had some thought that the charge ignition slamming a thin card into the soft Charmin and thence into another thin card and bit of hydraulically motivated grease would never cause a "ringing" event. Never did either. Plus the loads shot pretty darn good.

I started in the kapok days and never trusted myself measuring "tufts". I came to like the measurability of Mr. Whipple's finest, whether simply ripping a square off or by cutting with scissors and it would hold the charge down without real compression. Then the card and grease "pea" for ease and then the neck snug seated bullet, either patched or GG.

I never thought much of polyester suits either.

BvT

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Well Baron...I am not trying to be obtuse - I just want to examine what people
are doing and mostly why they are doing that thing.

Looking at the old diagram of the Martini-Henry BP Cartridge that I posted
several postings back, one can see that they used "Cotton Wool" as a "WAD" over
the Black Powder.

Wool is a protein from an animal's hair (usually but not limited to sheep).
Cotton wool cannot be anything but uncombed cotton - cellulose fibers.

They did not have plastics back then - no polyester.
Had they had it, would they have used it perhaps.....?

Has anyone ever opened up an authentic Factory Made old Black Powder Martini-Henry 577/450 cartridge
from that era and documented what was in it ?

If anyone reading this knows of any links giving MHR Cartridge disassembly data, PLEASE
post it here so we can all see what really happened !

I don't mean what was written by some fellow who is giving opinions and
guesses - which seems to be what one usually gets !

Some of the English Officers in India reloaded Martini-Henry cartridges for hunting purposes....
and that is where opinions and preferences could easily get written into "history".

The diagram shows just Bee's Wax on top of the cotton 'wad' - with a card ("glazed board disc") between
the Bee's Wax and the cotton and two "glazed board discs" directly under the PP Bullet.

This goes contrary to what Paul Matthews recommends.

I, too, wonder if Matthews was correct - is the Lube Cookie being vaporized, or is it
hydraulically squished by the 11,333 g's Matthews (calculated) out sideways and "Painted" onto the bore ?
"Loading The Black Powder Rifle Cartridge" by Paul A. Matthews, pages 16-17 - this happens in just 3 milliseconds time.

How would one find out ?

Now - Should we all faithfully duplicate what the English Military used in the
Martini-Henry or what we "Think" is a better way - and - use modern materials or only just what the "Book" said ?

As to straight cases versus bottleneck cases - does all of the BP burn immediately or is some BP shoved upward and
bash into the bottle neck of the case before it all burns ?
If it does, it wouldn't matter in a straight case, but a bottleneck case may be
subjected to that shoulder hammering effect if the top layer of powder is slammed forward before it burns completely.
It would depend on just how fast BP burns - and would that even matter once the case
is fire formed to the chamber of the barrel ? New case yes ? Old reused case no ?

Just a thought. I'm not disagreeing with you about COW, but maybe even
compressed BP might do it, too !

A great deal of what is said comes from "It sounded like a good idea...", which is
what has gotten California into such a political mess. I'd rather see DATA.

DoctorBill

For what it is worth - Photoshop'ed Image - measurements extrapolated from Jamison
Brass Cartridge Dimensions and diagram dimensions. Bullet from e-Bay auction site.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Well, you have my reasons for using Whipple's Finest instead of (cotton ) wooly. Measurability, ease of use, CONSISTENCY, and the great difficulty of tufting measurements for me. Especially since I want softer and thinner compenents for the bottleneck. Likewise why I don't use/like Polly Ester. But I'm not loading your ammo. GO FOR IT ! Likewise, I've suggested why theBritish used wooly in their ammo, and it was not lack of synthetic fuzzy stuff. It was the amount of powder and where it fit into the case design and the understanding not to compress powder in a bottle neck, and a decision certainly not to overcome that spacing problem with yet more powder in a notorious thumper.

I am willing to bet arsenals followed the specs given them by the BRITISH goobermint. Likely didn't phony it up either. Now the JO's in India probably did have their boolits cast soft for them by their Punkah Castah to load into cases. I'd vote for that for Tiger, buffalo, and probably elephant. Probably harder was better for five ranks of charging spearmen though. But it just doesn't matter. It was your sample drawing and hard as heck bullet you posted.

BTW did you notice the utter precision of the production posted by RMulhern? That's the starting point and then you begin to refine things by trial. You know after firing you can get some ideas of lube needs by the type and location of fouling in your barrel. Get to work on your production without worrying so much. Cast a hundred visually perfect bullets. Patch them perfectly to come out 2 thoudandths over groove. Prepare your cases perfectly according to your bet. Develop a test schedule with primer, primer wad, measuring and powder dropping all the same and start shooting 3 shot trials of wad, buffer, cookie, card, and bullet columns, with the PP bullet always engaging the rifling as it should. Start at 100 yards and keep records and look at everything critically.

Somewhere you will find peace. Note that author you mention did not set up for the 577-450 production either.

BvT

[Lead pot]

Interesting looking at that drawing. I never seen a lube wad used like this.
That hollowed out portion of the B/Wax disk makes me wonder if they filled that cavity with some sort of soft shortning like lard to control the fouling. B/Wax alone wont do this.
The way that disk is it would keep the substance they used in it from migrating into the powder by making a good seal on the side of the case, and also the B/Wax would take a lot of heat before melting.I'm going to have to try this once to see if it has any merritt.

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Baron - I am kind of doing what you said.

I started out with the Milk Carton Disc over the PolyEster wad, then the Lube Cookie,
then a paper disc then the PP Bullet.

Starting up the reloading process again on 30 rounds - that's all the Brass I have
until GAD sends me 20 of theirs. Their taking their time sending them....then I'll have 50 total.

I'll load 85 grains BP, Polyester wad, Lube Cookie, then either a paper disc or
Milk Carton Disc, then PP Bullet.

Can't imagine that it makes much different about one or two (stiff ?) discs between
the bullet and the Lube Cookie. Space taker upper....PP protector.

Whether or not one way or another works better assumes one can aim the rifle
well enough to test reproducibility of the cartridge load configuration !

Really - for the average old man, a bench vise would be needed to assess which
cartridge load configuration might work best.

One fat butt-load of variables to consider !
A "good" scientist plays with only one variable at a time....

I'll be happy if I can put the slugs in a 12 inch circle at 100 meters.

I'd be ecstatic if I could hit the 500 meter Metal Boar Gong at the range !

No matter what, though, this is fun stuff, damned interesting and a great (albeit expensive) hobby !

DoctorBill

PS - I wonder if wetting Paper Patches with Beer would work ?

[RMulhern]

"
PS - I wonder if wetting Paper Patches with Beer would work ? "

No! Used distilled water! Drink a case of Budweiser...go to the range and you won't give a damn if you hit the berm...but you'll be happy as hell!!

You're trying to make this ROCKET SCIENCE....but maybe that's what it takes with BN cartridges!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

RMulhern - I did try India Pale Ale and it worked quite well....
at least it did on me - a great Lube, as it were.

I have been patching with tracing paper (0.002 in) using egg white in water
with a pinch of baking soda added to keep the egg white from curdling. Works.
White of one egg in about 1.5 cup tap water with a healthy pinch of Arm & Hammer
Baking Soda (sodium bicarbonate). Mix for about an hour, then filter thru a
paper towel in a kitchen strainer into a empty wide mouth water bottle.
Keep in the fridge then use an oz or so for many bullets.

I know the purists don't like that, but for right now, I need the help keeping the
paper where I put it.

I also found it nice to work on a transparent plastic cutting sheet from the $1 store.
Three for $1.



Made marking pen marks of the paper patch shape on the cutting sheet and
placed a BLACK paper (spray painted) underneath to help see the paper patch edge
as I roll the wet patch onto the bullet. (...or dry for the purists)



I am very sure that each of you has a much better system for doing this and I will
enjoy reading about it when you reply. Please add nice pictures so that we can
all benefit from your experience.

I loaded up 25 Martini-Henry rounds with the PP Bullets I just made and dried over the
furnace register.

85 grains BP (weighed), Polyester wad - tamped down, Lube Cookie cut with the cartridge
itself, felt disk, tamped down with a 7mm Remington cartridge case base, PP bullet rubbed
with the Lube Cookie lube, then inserted into the cartridge.



I am tired now and I'm gonna go to bed.....I'm old and deserve a good sleep - never get it, tho !

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Here is what I am doing at this point.

Baron & RMulhern - I finally fingered out how to roll the patches on dry !







This Cookie Recipe smells of Dill Pickles (jar I keep it in) !
I decided to add a bit of Hoppe's No. 9 to my next batch - Perfume !



The Lube Cookie often "pops out" due to air pressure,
so I poke it with a pin to let the compressed air out.









The paper patch here is dry - I finally fingered out how to do it !



Have 30 all ready to go !
If GAD would just send me the other 20 cases I ordered,
I'll have 50 cartridges. That's enough for me....

Now to get back to my 30-40 Krag-Jorgensen 'restoration'...
http://parallaxscurioandrelicfirearm...vive-it?page=1

DoctorBill

[Buckshot]

............Doctor Bill, I read this thread with much interest. As a perosnal point I do honestly believe that the common mou th variety of saliva does do a better job then plain water in making patches do what they orta. Maybe the digestive enzymes or something? But, not wanting to end up with mental issues or other maladies I gave up the handleing of paper patches and bare lead boolits long ago. Maybe not long ago enough as I can walk through the door form the shop to the kitchen and will have forgotten why I made the trip?

Many years ago I was lucky enough to have purchased a nice MkIV Martini Enfield which was made as one of the late .402" calibers, and subsequently changed back to the 577-450. At which point it became a Martini Henry I guess? My gunsmith had called me (he knowing I was interested in the odd and uncommon) wanting to know if I was interested in a 577-450 Martini for $125? It's a long and somewhat interesting story of how he ended up with a BOGGLE of Martini stuff. Basically a customer who was wanting some work done to some original SA Army Colts had an eccentric uncle who'd passed away and left him with quite an inventory of firearms related stuff. Including firearms, hense the old Colt revolvers and Martini stuff.

To pay for the pistol work he wanted to trade this old Anglo militaria. The story gets a bit more complicated and I don't have the time nor inclination to relate it all, but included amongst the flotsam and jetsom was a full unopened case of Kynoch cordite loaded 577-450 rifle ammo and a partial case of the same, but in the carbine loading. Also a case of 12 brand new MkIV 577-450 barrels (dated 1892) including the sights. The barrel on the rifle I was offered was in pretty good shape, but for another $125 he'd provide and install one of these brand new old barrels. So I said yes.

As a side note, another customer of his was able to purchase both cases of the Kynoch ammo. He and I became friends, and over time he allowed me to fire 20 rounds of the carbine loads, and he wanted the brass back as he could sell the empties at the gunshop for $5 each. He'd gifted me 5 of the rifle cartridges. One I disected and fired the other 4. Almost every single cartridge (carbine and rifle) were all of the "Clack, sizzle, sizzle, Ka-Boom" variety, but still amazingly accurate. Almost every single one split it's neck. The rifle rounds were patched with a dark green paper and the carbine loads were patched with a pink paper. Both were lubed, with beeswax I assume.



The above became my standard load. That is the Lee 457-450-F (not the HB design) patched 'as cast' with 20# bond for an OD of .472". They were loaded in Bertram cases over 38.0grs of IMR 3031 + dacron for 1250 fps. Our range held a monthly NRA sanctioned 200 meter silhuette match. For the un-registered heathens involved simply for the fun of it, they had what they called the "Cowboy Match" (this was before SASS) and was good for mention in the club's monthly newletter only. With this load it was no problem to fetch the 200 meter ram with any kind of hit. It's a very accurate load. The above 60 rounds were loaded to take to the 2005 NCBS shoot in Winnemucca, NV.

When I first got the rifle I HAD to have brass, and the only game in town was Bertram to the tune of $108/20, and I was flush enough to buy 40 cases. I had an 01 FFL, and at the time Midway had a pretty good deal for dealers. They had some Bertram brass on sale of which the 577-450's were part of and bought 60 more at ONLY $88/20. Once you've paid that, buying .43 Spanish, 11mm Mauser, and 45-90 later on kind of made them rather inexpensive (comparatively anyway ). I worked 12 shifts at night (6 to 6) by myself, with only a limited amount of stuff I was responsible for. As a consequence paper patching boolits wasn't a big chore, and it was like getting paid to do it At first I annealed the cases after their 3rd firing. I've since changed to the 5th firing. I've yet to lose the first Bertram case. I have them in their origional 20 round batches and the most senior of them have 32 firings on'em.

RCBS wanted $350 for dies. CH4D wanted $158 so I got those. Problem was they'd resize the necks to hold a .458" slug. No bueno pro ca-ca. I called them up and no problem they said. Send'em on back with the boolit I was using and a fired case and they'd take care of it no charge. Being the type who cannot stand waiting I searched case dimensions and discovered I could neck size via modifying a Lee 458 Win mag size die. Having a lathe made the mod easy to accomplish. I also had to bore out and re-thread the seater die. I have never yet to this day had to use the FL size die, and have neck sized only.

The friend I'd mentioned earlier who'd gotten the ammo somehow connected with the dude who'd originally had all this stuff. He also ended up with several small miniature actions, parts and sights and a few other full sized actions. He'd started a sporter on a Greener action and had lost interest in it. He asked if I thought $150 was too much, and I said nope!





He'd bought really nice wood and had the butt in place, but hadn't finished the forend. The barrel is a sporter with fairly heavy walls and a nifty flip up rear sight with and elevator going to and indicated 600 yards. The barrel has ratchet rifling and is so marked. Also known as buttress rifling.

Due to the "Good Ole Boys" and their group buys over on the British and Militaria forums I was able to glom onto 2 nice grease groove type boolit moulds.



This is the 505gr design. The other I don't have a photo of but it's 456grs. I haven't done much work with either of them and have only shot them in the sporter. They haven't been as accurate as the PP'd slugs in the military rifle to date. The target shows the best I've gotten so far. The loads were 44, 45, 46, & 47grs. Each load, even though only one grain heavier showed a marked accuracy improvement. I made a .466" push through die to size these (.470") slugs through and hope to get some paper patched to see what they'll do then.

I have 80 turned brass cases made by the old Red Willow Armory, and have dedicated these to the sporter. Don't think the brass is the cause for the less then steller accuracy. But if after patching it does no better I'll then try the heavier Jamison brass (another group buy deal) The Bertram has only been fired in the military rilfe and I would like to keep it that way.

.................Buckshot

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Buckshot - Most interesting ! I have not shot my Martini-Henry with enough of
reloads made just one way to know how well it shoots !

The first rounds thru it were unpatched naked .457-450 LEE's and that was
just to open up (fireform) the Brass. Even so, I hit what I aimed at (hit a 500 yard metal Boar !).

After that, I shot ten variously patched bullets in the fireformed Brass where I had not
crimped the bullet.
The bullets just sit there fairly loose in the case.

Now I have 30 rounds all patched with four turns of tracing paper.
Most were wrapped with the egg-white water, but the last ten are dry wrapped.
I rub grease cookie on the paper to lube it.

I bought Goex BP, but have read and heard enough about Pyrodex to think maybe
this Anti-Pyrodex stuff is overboard, personal opinion that I should not take
very seriously until I personally experience problems (or not).

Some guys will only drink one brand of Beer and claim all others are drain water !
I must taste all of them myself before I form an opinion.....hmmmm? Don't you agree ?

This Martini-Henry Mark II is quite a rifle !
The loaded cartridge looks like a cannon shell !
People at the range are astounded when I open my box of reloads.

I'm having fun ! I just hope no band of Zulu's comes over the Hill at me....
I don't even have a Bayonet yet !

DoctorBill

[martinibelgian]

DB,

You 'll come to necksizing those cases - that will give you the required bullet pull upon ignition. A loose bullet isn't that good an idea, not with the long, tapered martini throat. If you can seat the bullet to touch the rifling, no problem, but when you only have the case to hold it, you need some neck tension. BTW, 4 turns of paper might just turn out to be a bit much, but then again, you'll never know untill you try...