Newbie - Spit Substitutes ? Lubing after dry ? and Sizing afterwards ?

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I just bought a new 130 year old Martini-Henry Mark II which I am going to paper patch .457 cast bullets for (up to .468 final).

Been reading and reading and reading - endless info on PP bullets !

Question about "glue" or "adhesive" to substitute for spit.....

I saw people who use Sprite and someone who suggested Metamucil, then plain gelatine solution !

Wow...how about Mrs Butterworth's syrup diluted down ?...maybe goat urine ? Aloe Hand Lotion ? lol

Anyway - just adhesives - what has worked for you ?
Maybe I will get some interesting answers so I can stop reading umpteen forum posts....

THEN - I see that some size the PP'ed bullet - after it is dried (and lubed).
Is this step really necessary ? I don't have a .468 sizing die ! Will my MHR work well w/o sizing after PP'ing ?

LUBING the Paper Patch after dried....I've read that Johnson's Paste Wax was used. LEE case lube.
Maybe Paraffin dissolved in Mineral spirits and allowed to dry ? Bee's Wax in Mineral Spirits ?
Automotive Axle Grease ?

I am getting everything I need together and looking forward to paper patching.
It looks like a very interesting endeavor !

Obviously, I am trying to start an interesting discussion here. Please excuse the humor....

A Paper Patcher's Best Friend ?


DoctorBill

[Don McDowell]

Most people do everything they can to keep the bullet from sticking to the paper.
Few people lubricate the patch, most use a grease cookie between the patch and the powder, with wads to keep the grease cookie from contaminating the powder or the patch.

[montana_charlie]

Most of us who patch bullets for use in black powder cartridge rifles use water, or nothing, when wrapping the patch on. That is, some patch wet and some patch dry.
If you wish your paper was thicker, patching dry gets it on the bullet with no reduction due to stretching.

Lube is a dual purpose necessity for grease grooved bullets. It fights bore leading, and keeps powder fouling soft.
In paper patched loads, there is no chance to lead the bore.
Some BPCR shooters are playing, or have played, with lube on the patch, but most don't use anything.

If you are shooting paper targets, you can propbably wipe between shots.
When looking at it from this point of view, no lube is required, at all.

Having lube in the powder column is common for hunting loads to keep the powder fouling soft enough to allow a second shot.


CM

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Here are my first endeavors into Paper Patching for my Mk II Martini-Henry 577/450 rifle.

All you ex-spurts are probably laughing it up....but you started way back when
and you probably did experiments, also.....

Here is what I have set up for cutting and rolling the paper onto bullets.

I used some USED COFFEE FILTERS because I am cheap and we make coffee several
times each day and I won't be making all that many patched bullets, anyway....
The paper is extremely tough and after the coffee is made has nothing in it.

I also am trying Newsprint (bought a tablet of it for $5)

Looks like two turns will get my .457 Cast Bullets to .464-.468 diameter.



I had two Exacto Self-Healing Cutting Mats that I can cut the paper on
with a metal ruler.

They have lines to follow and then you can wet the paper right on the mat w/o
any damage to the mat.

Nice.

I used an old plastic parking tag from where I work and cut a 'template' at 60°
and 7 cm long (for my patch length) - works nicely. Sharp Exacto knife blade.

Some various things I am trying for keeping the paper from unrolling.

Spit works well. (I don't have a Cold - so it isn't phlegm!)
Soda Pop (flat) works well
Miralax (Polyethylene Glycol 3500 Mol Wt) in water works well
Glue Stick in water does not work well (?)
A thin solution of Elmer's Wood Glue in water - does not work well (?)

I want to try

Okra pods soaked in water (cheap, slippery, slimy & sticky - might work well)
....probably the juice in a can of store bought Okra ? Yuk.

Dried egg white (used in cooking) in water....easy to measure, use and won't spoil.

on and on and on......experimenting is fun and I'm a Chemist, anyway.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

I bought several pods of OKRA at a grocery store.
I froze and thawed them (breaks up the cell walls) , sliced just one up in a cup of water,
heated to boiling in a micrwave, blended it with a hand kitchen blender,
and filtered the green juice thru a paper towel in screen strainer.

Lord is the juice slimy - and smelly of OKRA !

Rolled a couple of used coffee filter patches wetted with the liquid and they adhere well.

After drying, it leaves a coating on the paper that feels smooth.

Just wanted to mention this - I'll report later on how it works.

Not rocket science, but what the heck ?

And just about the time I can go shoot, it started to rain.

I'm a "Fair Weather Shooter"

DoctorBill

[scattershot]

i generally use just plain water, but I read that the old timers mixed just a bit of eggwhite in it to help it stick. I'vve heard pros and cons on lubing the patch. If you're just shooting targets in fair weather, I don't know that it matters much.

That's just my opinion, and I have only patched a few boolits, so take it for what it's worth.

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Can you imagine the GREAT HALL of a bullet patching workshop far from London with Mid-Victorian frocked men setting up production and quality standards, overseeing all the work, and, the employments, and placements of workers, supplies, and watching, noting, writing and evaluating all the patching going on or to be done.

Women were employed of course because of their deft fingers and copius spit. They were carefully trained in that vital aspect of the patching. Too much spit and the patches slumped by themselves, or mouldered before drying. Some were even a little smelly in the counting rooms. Too little spit and the bloody patches unfurled, and sometimes even popped like American popcorn. It was a constant management effort to control and provide focus for the ceaseless hacking, hocking, gurgleing, gagging, wimpering, slobbering, licking, and slurping to productive ends meeting high Empire standards. Less, or more than the exactly required amount of SPIT, was not a thing to pass over lightly. Sometime the women patch rollers cheated a bit without close watching.

The mighty .457 alloy bullet must be properly wrapped before bedded in the world's finest military cartridge, produced with the utmost of care by legions of spitting women, lest military efforts be foiled by men in sandals with pointy sticks.

I don't think the SHARPS and Remington and other US Companies selling patched bullets used spitting women in producing their patched bullets or cartridges so bulleted.

BvT

[Idaho Sharpshooter]

I was going to suggest KY Jelly when I saw the thread header. Having read the entire thread, I realize now that would be in poor taste.

So, I will refrain from doing so. You might try one egg white in 16oz of warm water instead.

Rich

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Baron ! I am so happy to see someone with a true sense of humor answer my
thread !

May the great bird of happiness take a big dump on your personage !

I am picturing, in my fetid mind, benches of Victorian women in big, fluffy dresses
hucking up trays of mucous to paper patch Martini-Henry bullets !

I can see some ramrod stiff-backed 'gentleman' walking behind them with a walking stick,
urging them on to higher and higher levels of expectoration....
"The Queen is expecting extensively expanded expectoration ! Ten percent more today, Ladies !"

Imagine their job evaluations at the end of the year.

All those poor Ladies in feathered hats going home and telling their husbands, "No kiss
tonight my dear. I'm dry !"

Do you think that they washed their hands before going home ?

"Oh Lord, Ms. Brainwharte slipped on a lube cookie and broke her hip !"

Yes - and then this bozo comes along and says to try cooked OKRA slime !
Of course - I would be welcome in the South, where they actually like to eat that stuff.

Huzzahs to you, Baron ! Hip, Hip, Hurray my jolly old fellow ! Keep a stiff upper paper patch, old bean.


ID Sharpshooter - Glad you didn't say that !
Besides, we ran out it a couple of days ago. Used it all up.....right. lol

I heard about egg white (albumin protein) and will try it someday.
Had to try OKRA slime....once you see OKRA slime....and then see someone making
it "on purpose"......to eat it !

Same with Menudo (tripe slime soup)....I could try that ! Protein and Mucous. Yum !

Makes me hungry !

Just had another whole thought....do some drinking establishments still have spittoons ?
Wonder if they'd sell me a bucket load ? Does it spoil in the warm weather ?

Does the US Senate and US House of Representatives have spittoons in the isles ?
Some of that political expectorational exudate might be good to use for paper patching.
...it isn't any good for anything else.

DoctorBill

I wonder if Jay Leno could use this material for his stand up monologue ? !

[Baron von Trollwhack]

To tell you a secret. I always used tapwater, YES, tapwater from municipal supplies in many of the east coast states for wetting my 100% cotton rag bond certificate paper. I have no doubt that either wellwater or the local public waterworke product was the manufacturing choice in the old days. Cost and effectiveness ruled then too.

You see, I think that in those late days of the big buffalo hunts and the glory days of the LRBPC competitions, they had no green printer pape or coffee filters, glue tubes, PTFE, or rolling machines, or thought of such.

The job was to roll and stretch the patch perfectly on the perfect , likely swaged, bullet. They did have long narrow tables at which women sat on alternate sides, with collection boxes looking like modern shotgun makers use before boxing up their shells, and unwrapped bullets in boxes at convenient places, along with pre cut, perfect patches. They had their sponges and water bottles too. It might have been low tech, but it was not inefficient for the time. Women did the work (without the spitting) for the same reasons they did modern electronic component manufacture(resistors for example in the late 40s) and later assembly. They could do it better and would accept the wages offered. They had support help to "keep the line running" . I have seen the images etched in books and the narratives of CW and patching work.

It was an assembly line operation and of course the process was not unlike making millions of paper musket cartridges not many years before.

I did likewise when I started. Paper patched 45-70 cast bullets in Frankford arsenal tinned cases dating from the late 1890s . The best bullets I could make and size. The best I could do for reloading. Templates, an old manual paper shear for strips and a single edged razor blade for the diagonal cuts. Lots of note taking. I could make PP bullets that shot better in my nearly new1884 RR Bayonette Trapdoor than the best surplus ammo I could find. but not by much for the effort. And I had no long range place either.

I think many do not pursue the old perfection as there are too many diversions in the pursuit. Truly, look at the goofiness around here in simply selecting material and lube for the patch. Random in many cases. YET, we know our cloth patching brethern are in fact shooting better simply by using some teflon patching. A clue, Gents, a clue.


BvT

[Don McDowell]

Borchardt patented a patching machine.

[Lead pot]

Preparation H is the best thing to use. It shrinks the patch tigh on the bullet lubricates the bullet and it also shrinks the group when you shoot.

LP.

[montana_charlie]

YET, we know our cloth patching brethern are in fact shooting better simply by using some teflon patching. A clue, Gents, a clue.

The subject has been discussed, and found to be a fruitless pursuit.
CM

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Perhaps I should have said teflon coated? Not plumbers tape or the like. I missed the part about the coated trials failing?

BvT

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Back to Lube Cookie Recipes......

I am trying to mix up

Paraffin
Bee's Wax or Toilet Ring Wax (whatever it is)
Peanut Oil - the active ingrediment....

I started out with 20% peanut oil (PO) by volume.
i.e. 1 block of Parowax
2 TBS of PO - (Albertsons Brand) 2 TBS = 1.0 oz by vol.

Was quite HARD after cooling to room temperature.

Added 2 TBS of Toilet Ring (bee's) WAX.

Still rather hard.

Added ~ 3 more TBS (total of 5.5TBS) of PO. 2.75 oz by vol.

It is now a little softer - but I'm still wondering if soft enough ?

My question is - "...What am I going for in a Lube Cookie recipe ?"

Given about 70° F average temp - Just how soft should a Lube Cookie be ?

If anyone finds lube cookies down range in front of their bench, I would ASSUME
that the Lube Cookies are not able to perform their task of coating the barrel !

Should I try to manufacture a Lube Cookie "Mix" wherein the cookie is soft enough
to "Spread Out !" . . . . . on it's way down the barrel ?. . . .But not melt inside the cartridge before it is fired off ?

About 40 years ago, I worked one summer in an Oil Company's Quality Assurance Lab.
They had a standardized "Cone Penetrometer" test for grease thickness. Could that be simplified ?

It would be nice to have some kind of criteria other than, "This is my mix - it works - sit down and shut up!"
Something everybody could do w/o special equipment....can we come up with something ?

I hereby propose that a test composed of dropping a 50 cal lead ball from 36 inches (one yard)
onto a slab of room temp Lube Cookie material and measuring the indentation diameter !



Once you do this several times and get the average indentation diameter, then you can essentially
"Standardize" Lube Cookie softness for communicating with other reloaders using Lube Cookies.

I would be most interested in knowing what other folks recipes yield for this drop test.
What are other people routinely using for Lube Cookie softness ?

DoctorBill

[Baron von Trollwhack]

Sorry DoctorBill, toilet ring wax has not typically been made of BW since Eric Clapton was a pup. A great many reports here suggest it is now some kind of evil scheme to befuddle boolit lubers. So, if you experience.........

I received some lubed 38special bullets from our Springfield (Mark Whyte) a while ago and it is so moist after firing that barrel nearly drips at the muzzle. No leading of course. That's what you want from a good cookie.

BvT

[Jim]

Concerning the contents of toilet rings, read THIS POST.

[Lead pot]

One thing I found after putting those sticky wax rings on the closet flange and wiping my fingers on my shoes it keeps the leather soft

[Lead pot]

DB.

People put a lot of voodoo ingredients in making bullet lubes that is not necessary.
But getting to your lube cookies.
I put a lot of them down the barrel shooting PP bullets and recovering them inside a shed in controlled conditions were I can see just what they do when they get a hard kick with black powder.
Most bullet lubes used for a GG bullet are to hard for a lube cookie used under a PP bullet from my findings. When your wads down range with the cards having the lube sandwiched between then with the land cuts and it looks like It was never shot the lube is to hard to do a proper job.
Most target shooters using a PP bullet wipe between shots and that makes using a lube wad unnecessary in most cases. I find I need a thin lube wad necessary when I shoot the bottle neck cases or I will stretch the case necks badly to the extreme of separating the case necks.
When I mix my lube I use for a lube wad I judge the temper by cutting a wad with the case I use it in and put the wad between my fingers and squeeze it. I want it to squish out with ease pressure and I look for the wad after it was shot and I dont want to find more then 1/2 of the lube between the two card wads or what ever type of wads I use and I want to be able to just blow into the breach with one breath with out the use of a blow tube and be able to push a dry patch down the barrel and have it come out in a greasy form that it will stick on my fingers when I rub it. and I dont want to see it on the bullet patch remnants that were folded under the base. I dont want it to ride with the bullet down range.
If you cant push a dry patch down the bore with just a blow down the breach with out a tube your lube is not working.
You can control the oils from migrating down into the powder by using proper wads that wont saok up the oil and let it get in contact with the powder even when it gets hot inside of a truck with the windows rolled up. But wads are another subject as well as the oil carriers used, waxes, some are better then others and I wont get into that.

LP

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

So "Toilet Ring Wax" is a Petroleum Wax with some Lubricity.
It is good for one's shoes and probably for other things, too.

I shall refer to it as TRW from now on.

Is it worth it to obtain TRUE BEE's WAX for Lube Cookies ?

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

I fired off 29 of my Martini-Henry 577/450 rounds yesterday - made up for
the sole purpose of fire forming the Jamison Brass.
No paper patching and the bullet was about .012 in too small in diameter.
I knew it was small and would not be accurate - I didn't care !
I just wanted to open up the new brass so that I can load these cast bullets PP 'd now.

I shot -
60 gr Pyrodex RS, Coffee Grounds filler, Milk Carton disk, Lube cookie
(http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...8&postcount=15),
paper disk, and a .457 WW Cast Bullet. I indexed the cases in the breech.

The Necks opened up to .468 - .471. Inner Diameter.

All fired off nicely and I even hit a Metal Target (Boar) at 500 yards !

This is good for me for a first time firing with loose bullets !



I love this rifle !

Came home, cleaned the rifle immediately (lot of leading) and hand washed the Brass with
liquid kitchen detergent with a test tube brush and dried them.

Now for reloading the cases w/o resizing them with PP'd bullets to .468 dia and firing for accuracy.

BTW - Had many guys at the range asking about the old girl and remarking on
the huge 'Milk Bottle" cartridges.
After a while, it gets to be annoying.....leave me alone !

DoctorBill

PS - Lead Pot...I sure would like to see how big an indentation a 50 cal lead ball,
dropped 36 inches, makes in your Lube Cookie Mix that you can squeeze as you described !
What is your recipe ?