Newbie - Spit Substitutes ? Lubing after dry ? and Sizing afterwards ?

[RMulhern]

Doc

No problem! We understand! Here's a low $$$$ tool which will give you a taper crimp if employed judiciously!!


Picture-Of-Pliers by Sharps45 2 7/8, on Flickr

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

OK...go ahead and make fun of me.

I already tried those !

Too hard on my Brass - ruined five of my cases !

But they are very good for pre-shredding the paper on my paper patched bullets !
Just squish the paper all around on the bullet with those sharp pipe grippers, load it in and then
it comes out all nice and cut up as the bullet leaves the barrel. No kidding !

I also like them for holding onto the front end of my Martini-Henry while I'm cleaning it.
Helps keep it from turning as I run emery paper down the barrel to get all that rust out from
when I forget to clean it for a month after shooting it.

DoctorBill

[RMulhern]

No Doc

Not laughing...just testing your 'sense of humor'! Any man that can laugh at himself shows intellect...so I guess you'll do!!

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

Nothing is more curious than the almost savage
hostility that humor excites in those who lack it.
- George Saintsbury

I may have humor, but I have no sense....

I told the Doctor that it hurts when I do this.
He said, "Don't do that !"
Henny Youngman

Sex at 68 is like playing pool with a rope. George Burns.

Back to Taper Crimping.....do you think a block of Brass would do instead of Steel ?
I'm not going to crimp thousands of them !
After all, I'm 68 and can see the end of the tunnel looming up !

I'd bet even a piece of OAK would do in a pinch ! It would have to be stained and oiled first.....

You know - it would be a lot of fun to sit down around a camp fire and talk with all you guys, and of
course, have several cases of beer and a box of Honduran cigars.

Consider this....a couple of weeks ago, I bought a Martini-Henry, some empty Brass and a bullet
mold. Now I can reload that Brass, paper wrap cast bullets and by God - Hit a Metal Boar Gong at
500 yards with that reloaded ammo shooting it thru a 133 year old rifle ! I'm not doing too bad !

I think I'll go and wrap some more bullets.....

DoctorBill

[Buckshot]

...............Considering the standard rifle load was 85.0grs of Curtis & Harvey's something or other, and a 480gr slug, those ole dudes were some manly men, and no doubt. My one excursion (added here for entertainment only, and totally without any edjumakashuna value) into loading and shooting my MkIV with black powder was a dismal and painfull experience. I knew, or had heard enough to cause me problems. In my own defense it was very early in my Martini journey and well before the internet as we know it today.

I knew the case was supposed to hold 85.0grs of BP and was capped with an attractively shaped 480gr patched RN lead slug. I had the Lee 457-450-F mould which was as close as I could come, and hadn't an inkling, or a glimmer of an idea of paper patching, so nixed the deal to eliminate that difficulty. I poured 85.0 grains of GOEX 2Fg into a case. You couldn't even see it in the case with a flashlight. I KNEW (heard or read) that there should be NO AIRSPACE between boolit and the BP charge. So I decanted enough more powder into the case to get it into the base of the neck.

Holy cow! When I dumped it out into the scale pan it was something like 120 grs! With some measureing it seemed I still had a good 1/2" of air under a seated boolit. I sure wasn't going to put anymore powder in there, so defaulted to using some cornmeal to fill up the balance of the caseneck. I loaded up 20 rounds. Next Tuesday at the range I set up a target at 50 yards and sat down at the bench withthe rifle's forend atop a couple sandbags and loaded a round. I really had no idea what to expect. I took a deep seat and a distant look and squeezed the trigger.

Holy Hanna on a pogo stick! I thought I'd been involved in my own personal locomotive wreak. When the smoke cleared I could see a hole in my target. To eliminate any suspense I'll hastily add that NONE of those holes became very clannish, and the entire target was pretty much all used up at the end. I was also pretty sure I was the only shooter on the line who could clap both his shoulder blades together I figured if I was to fire them off rapidly, cumulative damage to my shoulder could be minimized? I forget now how many I fired off, maybe 4-5 and figured I'd had about all I could stand. By then the whole left side of the rifle was covered in slobber. I began to try and hunt up ignorant suspects to help me in getting the balance of the infernal things emptied out, and I finally did get the chore completed. Those 20 rounds constitute the entireity of my experience with BP in the 577-450 Martini Henry.

Taper crimp. I merely used a piece of 2" long 7/8" OD 12L14 steel, as it machines like cheese. I used a #9 taper reamer, which is .4805" at the small end and .6066" at the big end. Since the Bertram brass is .015" thick at the mouth and given a .472" slug, I figured .502" caseneck OD, loaded. I had no loaded ammo at the time, but figured simple adjustments could be made to suit. With the piece of steel in a collet, I step drilled to 31/64 (.484"), then bored to .499". I put the reamer in the tailstock and ran it up to touch the bore and zeroed the readout on the tailstock. I then ran the reamer in 1.995". I honed the bore and at the small end brought it to .500". After that I threaded 1" of the top end for the reloading press. I knew I'd have to remove some of the bottom of the die.

I had to wait to finish it until I had loaded some ammo, and that caseneck OD of.502" turned out to be fine. The .500" small end compresses the casemouth .002" (give or take the odd few tenths) and after about 1/4" tapers out to where it doesn't touch. Put another way the width of the total crimp is about 1/4".

.................Buckshot

[goofyoldfart]

Doc Bill: to reiterate what Buckshot said --- your idea of using a 5/8ths in. piece of brass or steel to make a "tapper taper tool" utilizing the tube to a proper length is an excellent inexpensive way to go about making a tool to see if it works. I wouldn't say to throw out that idea. I'm 67 and all that I have is a drill press, 4 1/2" grinder (hand held) files, hacksaws and stubborn "stickwithititis". you might be surprised at what I can make with just those tools. Yea, takes time, but who cares? I'm retired and on social security so I've learned to think outside of the box. This thread has given me many ideas for my Martini-Enfield 45-70. Don't have a lot of money so it's time for work arounds I have really enjoyed this thread and all of the advice. DON'T GIVE UP!!!!!!!! Your doing fine. Sheeesh---I can't even see 500m with out a scope or bino's. Heck, you hit the durn thing. God Bless to all. (I know--not PC.I don't care)

Gof < aka goofyoldfart or goofy>

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My machinist friend insists that he can make a DIE for me to Taper Crimp my
rounds in my RCBS Press.
He is going to use a "Pin Hone" (if I understand this correctly) after he cuts the
hole on his Lathe.
Then he is going to thread the steel rod, on his Lathe, to fit the 1 1/4 - 12 threads of
the Press.

I just stand there in awe...and watch.

I've been wrapping both the .463 and the .466 bullets from the mold that he
milled out (see previous posts here) with different types and thicknesses of paper.

Trying.....tap water wet wrapping

Newsprint (.004)
Coffee Filter Paper (.003)
Butcher Paper (.004)
Tracing Paper (.002)
Cotton (100%) Velum (.002) Expensive
Banner Paper (.004)

I am staying away from paper with Titanium Dioxide ( TiO2 ) - the white
glaze used to make computer and writing paper (call it clay if you want).
Don't want that wearing on the rifling.

2 wraps .466 bullet - 3 wraps .463 bullet.

All of the papers work nicely except the Butcher Paper, which tears easily when wet.

Some fit loosely - others fit very tightly - some too big.

IDEA - Could one make small razor blade slits on the paper strip on the leading
edge to facilitate it stripping off as it leaves the barrel ?
The bullet spins Clockwise (right hand twist) as you watch it go away from you - right ?

I learn something new every day and all of you have contributed a lot to my
"edjumakashun", as Buckshot says.

I thank all of you ! Profusely.

The weather here is starting to get crappy as winter approaches -
as always in Eastern Washington State.
I will just have to get used to shooting with cold, wet feet and to slipping
and falling on my **** going to the targets.

Does anyone have any 'spent uranium' from spent shells over in Iraq ?
We could try paper patching some of that to punch holes in the Gongs at
our ranges....
Or maybe even some Carbide slugs - seems you could shoot anything paper patched.
After all, it never touches the rifling !
How about Mercury frozen in Dry Ice and pushed into the case just before firing ?
Saw an old movie where someone used bullets of frozen water to commit a murder and
since they couldn't find the bullet.....but Charlie Chan figured it out !

It's "Bed Time" (11:12 PST) for old farts and I'm one of them - so night guys !

DoctorBill

PS - why does this Forum nullify my "Log In" so quickly ?
Can I set the default 'log out' time somewhere ?

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

My friend made a Taper Crimp Die on his lathe this afternoon.

He decided to make it regular die size instead of 1 1/4 - 12.

Amazing process to watch ! He is amazing.
He isn't bothered with all my questions like some people are.
Showed me how to temper metal with a torch.

So now I have to pick a paper out of the five different kinds I've been trying
and then reload a bunch and go shoot them.

I believe I now be a Martini-Henry BP Cartridge reloader.

If I could just hit dem rascawee tawgets !



DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Please Note - This thread is about a 577/450 Martini-Henry "Zulu Special" - please note

More on the continuing Saga of my Martini-Henry Reloading.....

I just ordered 50 Magtech 24 Ga Brass Cartridges from BuffaloArms.com for
about what I'd have paid at Cabelas - but with Idaho State Tax added on.
($23 x 2) + $7 shipping vs $27 each plus Sales Tax (Cabelas).

I am going to "Try" reforming them.

NOW.....my machinist friend Gary just called and I told him about the method some have
used where they use a 9/16th in Die, then use the LEE Die (2 Steps)

He suggested letting him slowly squeeze the necks down using his Collet Clamps
on his Lathe and/or Milling Machines.



Just keep carefully turning the Brass while slowly squeezing the necks in small steps
down - close to what the LEE Die is set for.

This would make the final LEE Die step less difficult. (?)

He even has a hand turn device to do this manually....

Maybe also stepping the Brass near where the shoulder goes...

We will try that method next week when the Magtech Brass arrives !

The Queen's Own Martini-Henry -

- should then finish the job by fire forming the cases.

DoctorBill

[DoctorBill]

Well...I went and dood it....

The BIG Gun Show was in Spokane this weekend.
Wasn't going to go, else I'd buy another rifle !

My machinist friend, Gary, kind of talked me into going, though.
He said, "I was going to go, but if you're not going, I guess I won't either..."
Right ! So I HAD to go. Couldn't let Gary down....could I ?

So there I am staring at an H&R US Cavalry Model 1875 Trapdoor Springfield BP Rifle.
All NEW - Never Shot - $600.....LORD ! Help me get control of myself !

It was near closing and the seller came down to $525....

Gary is all for me buying it - says it is made with Modern Steel, etc.
Didn't take any cash so's I wouldn't be able to buy a rifle.
Gary starts plunking down five $100 bills....what could I do ? Trapped...

Bought it. Will pay Gary back tomorrow. It's all his fault....I'm innocent !

Cannot find any photos of them on Google Images ! They stopped making them
in 1987, I remember the guy saying.



A big 'P' on left side of receiver and on the underside of the butt end of the stock.



The seller's brother owned a Gun Shop and died and so he was selling off his brother's inventory.
Well....?
Some worn spots on the bluing - looks like from being on a gun rack a long time.

So now I'll be starting a Thread on reloading and shooting 45-70's

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=132661

Have any of you ever paper patched for 45-70 ?
Would one need .44 cal bullets to PP for .45 cal ?
The barrel slugged out to .445 - .461.

DoctorBill

[Lead pot]

I have a question, Was it the .577-450 Martini or was it the .577 snider used in the Zulu war??
I always thought it was the Snider that was used.

[RMulhern]

I have a question, Was it the .577-450 Martini or was it the .577 snider used in the Zulu war??
I always thought it was the Snider that was used.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martini-Henry

[Buckshot]

I have a question, Was it the .577-450 Martini or was it the .577 snider used in the Zulu war??
I always thought it was the Snider that was used.

............I believe the only major campaign the Snider took part in was the Abyssinian punitive expedition of 1868.

DoctorBill,

I've got one of those It's the Little Big Horn Commemorative carbine. It's like new but I bought it used at one of the last few large LA gunshows. I don't recall what I paid for it now.





At least you won't have to go through any reloading shenanigans to get it shooting. Modern steels or not, don't stray from Trapdoor rated loads. I hope your's shoots as well as mine. It's a lot of fun. My favorite load is the Lee 340gr over 28.0 grains of H4198.

................Buckshot

[Lead pot]

The Wikipedia has the Snider listed in the Zulu Wars also.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Snider-Enfield

Man, that had to have been a bloody war.
Some day people will learn not to enforce there will on others.