25 stevens rimfire

[Chev. William]

John Boy,
Thank you for the Suggestion about the .25 Hornet, or the .25 K Hornet, as a replacement for the .25 Stevens Long RF in my 1894 Stevens Favorite Rifle. I believe there is pressure problem with these cartridges unless down loaded considerably. The 25 Hornet is rated around 40,000psi (OOps that is for the .22 Hornet.) and the .25 Stevens is rated less than 25,000psi.
I will keep the idea in mind IF my development project is unsuccessful.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

As of last week my 1894 Action and the two barrels are back with my Gunsmith so all is quiet here for the Labor Day Holiday. I feel somewhat let down by the Head space problem that I found post test firing as I had not checked it before the Test. Oh Well, another Lesson to remember for the Future.

The light Firing Pin Strikes all seemed to measure about .008" to .010" deep on the roughly .040" rims and the ones that did fire after repeated strikes were about .015" to .020" deep. All the strike prints looked like they were the full width of the rim so the Tip was probably near the correct position if the Head Space had been correct, just that the Pin Travel was limited to less than needed for that head space.

Since the pin Travel before this rework cycle before the recent Test was Too Long, both to the front and to the rear, and needed travel "Adjustment" I guess that is reasonable. The pin no longer 'snagged' the hammer if tipped up, and did not appear to 'snag' the edge of the cartridge rim if tipped down, when closing action.

So Far, the Work on this action has cost me $225.00 not including parts I bought off Ebay as separate purchases nor the original cost of the Receiver and it's Transfer to my ownership.
Overall, and without the receipts in front of me, I would guess this rifle has cost about $500.00 to $600.00 so far. But I hope it is nearly completed as it has a Butt Stock and Forend fitted, one barrel is rigged with original 'iron' sights, and I have a Tang Sight I can add to it later.

Of the Rounds that I did fire: three are in a group low and to the Left of the Bulls eye (5" Black and labeled as "B-16" design) scoring 10x1, 9x1, 8x1, and three others scoring 6x1 and 5x2 (all at about 25 yards). Considering that each fired shot required between three and six strikes to ignite, I think there is potential for this rifle and myself once it is 'sorted out'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

ADDED 2014AAEP27: Talked to my gunsmith and he said the Pivot screws were 'bent' and is making new ones. I suggested making them out of 190,000psi high strength fasteners instead of regular steels.

Also I dropped off a partially complete replacement firing pin to have the retaining pin clearance groove cut in it to fit a 1915 modified Stevens Favorite I have that is fitted with a .600' wide custom machined Breech Block, and oversize pivot shoulder screws for both Breech Block and Lever.

This replacement firing pin is larger in body diameter than the stock 1915 Favorite one, and is machined from a Hardened high alloy pin with a inserted 5/64" diameter dowel pin as the Firing pin tip. Chev. William

[Chev. William]

"Matt's Bullets" sent me a box of 'as cast unsized-unlubed' Lyman 257420 bullets (about 100+).
This design is intended for a Gas Check so has a short reduced diameter heel on it and two 'lube grooves between three driving bands' with a Flat nose and rounded sides.
The dry as cast bullets seem to average 73.1 grains. After Tumble lube they seem to average 73.88 grains. This Bullet has the Sprue on the Base so the point is much more consistent in shape than one that is "nose poured" and has the sprue cut/print on the nose.

I wonder how much weight it might loose if a similar mold were shortened to remove the Gas Check Heel to leave a 'flat base'?

If these are cut with a "Cherry" could they easily be cut with the Heel section left out of the mold blocks or would it be better to just machine the Mold block pour face after the cavities are cut?

Does any reader have experience with 'modifing' molds in this manner?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[I'll Make Mine]

The gas check heel can be removed more easily by boring; either with a reamer that matches the drive band diameter, or a (carefully applied) drill bit. That would gain a grain or so in weight, rather than lose three or four grains. Of course, if you're shooting at pressure/velocity that doesn't require the gas check, there's generally no reason you can't just shoot the boolits as they drop or sized without a check.

[Chev. William]

The Lyman website says the "257420" is nominally a 65 grain bullet yet as cast by "Matt's Bullets" come out at around 73 grains when weighed upon an "RCBS" Beam Scale. This difference MAY indicate a difference in the Alloy used or a difference in the 'Cherry' used to cut the molds.

Since I would "Like" a bullet of close to 67 grains for use in ".25 Stevens" replacement cartridges and because I do not have any Lead Casting Equipment nor the funds to buy them: it looks like a mixed problem of finding out what alloy would cast at around 67 Grains out of this design mold.

I Did order a New Lyman "257420" mold that has arrived, paid for by shorting my monthly Food And Fuel Budget.
It will sit here until I can gather enough to send it to a Commercial Bullet Caster for them to Cast various alloy mixes to test alloys to find one that will come closer to the 67 grain weight 'As Cast' that I desire.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

A little work has been done on my Stevens 1915 'Modified' Favorite action toward getting it into shooting form:

A Firing Pin is now fitted to the Modified Breech Block (the BB is wider than original and has a Bushing for the FP tip to go through). The FP is to be 'Heat Treated' by my gunsmith to give it impact strength as it is presently dead soft. The Rest of the Stocked action is also with the gunsmith to have several interchangeable "Take Down" barrels finish fitted for head space and the Extractors also final fitted for the following cartridges: .32 Long/.32 Long Colt; .25ACP/6.35mm Browning; .25 Stevens (Short and Long) RF; and .22 S-L-LR RF.

My current plan is to use the .22RF set Breech Block with Adapter cases in the other calibers so I can try out the firearm in the possible Cartridge Calibers. These are all used barrels, the .22 is a old marlin, and the others are Stevens originals, all show use, and the Stevens ones LONG use and spotty cleaning, but all have good remaining rifling in them.

The Action is attached to a Good Condition used Buttstock that I fitted to it and also added a steel plate between the Stock and the Aftermarket replacement "Stevens Favorite" Butt plate molding. The Steel plate is to 'protect' the stock 'heel' from chips in handling. I have also been able to find forearm wood for most of the barrels so they will make complete rifles when attached. I am still looking for some Sights to fit the Stevens Dove tails most fo which are NOT 3/8" nominal size.

I have on hand adapter cases for .32 Short, .32 Long, and .25 Stevens but need to make up some in .25ACP. These are set up for centered .22 RF blanks or Powder Actuated Tool Loads so should fire with the .22RF breech block in each barrel chambering. I will, of course, need to change extractors with the barrel interchange. I will be using the '1894' style extractors instead of the '1915' style combination Extractor/Ejector style as being easier to change at the range. These all have been set up to fit the 'modified' Action's .218" diameter Lever Pivot Screw. This Action also has a Large size Breech Block Pivot Screw fitted and slightly larger Link Pivot Pins also although the Hammer and Trigger Pivot Screws are the original sizes. By the way, the Firing Pin diameter is slightly larger in diameter than an original 1915 Firing Pin, so an original does NOT fit this Breech Block nor the assembled action.

The Stevens Marksman (model 12) action is still with the Gunsmith having a Barrel fitted to it and the 'cocking pin' fitted to the action so no further progress on that front yet.

My two Stevens 1894 Favorite actions are still with the gunsmith having new and stronger screws made, and heat treated this time, to replace the soft ones originally fitted by the gunsmith. He is making the new ones out of Grade 8 Bolts so the alloy should take nicely to Heat Treatment.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

It turns out making .22RF Blank Adapters to fit .25ACP seems to be NOT practical as the rim disappears when I tried to cut the rebate for the Blank rim. The Blank rim measures .268" diameter and .045" thickness compared to the .25ACP .303" Diameter and .050" thickness, I can see why the remaining Brass is too weak to survive. Oh well, I can still test the .25 Stevens Adapters, and the .32 Long Adapters in this Action.

This 'Modified' Stevens 1915 Favorite action and .25 Stevens barrel are now fitted with sights; a 'Western' German Silver Blade front sight, no barrel mounted rear sight as I do not have any to fit the narrow Stevens Dovetail groove, and an old Marble's "lever lock' Tang Peep Rear Sight.

Serviceable Forearm and Buttstock are Ebay purchases and the Buttstock is fitted with a homemade Steel spacer under a reproduction 'Stevens Favorite' Buttplate. I currently am 'admiring' it as is, "in the White", with the aged finish on the wood, I still have not decided on the final finishes, either for the wood or for the metal.

It does no tlook like I will get to take it to the Range until nest month due to the Range being closed Thanksgiving Day, which is the normal Thursday that is 'half price' and affordable by this Retired Person most months.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

The Lyman website says the "257420" is nominally a 65 grain bullet yet as cast by "Matt's Bullets" come out at around 73 grains when weighed upon an "RCBS" Beam Scale. This difference MAY indicate a difference in the Alloy used or a difference in the 'Cherry' used to cut the molds.

Since I would "Like" a bullet of close to 67 grains for use in ".25 Stevens" replacement cartridges and because I do not have any Lead Casting Equipment nor the funds to buy them: it looks like a mixed problem of finding out what alloy would cast at around 67 Grains out of this design mold.

I Did order a New Lyman "257420" mold that has arrived, paid for by shorting my monthly Food And Fuel Budget.
It will sit here until I can gather enough to send it to a Commercial Bullet Caster for them to Cast various alloy mixes to test alloys to find one that will come closer to the 67 grain weight 'As Cast' that I desire.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

The 257420 molds have changed over the years. There is a long running thread on the .25-50 on the Marlin Owners forum. Part of the discussion has been about the 257420 which has varied over the years which this pic shows.


Left - Bullets I found at a gun shop some years ago
Center - Bullet from an early single cavity
Right - bullet sent to me made from a fairly current Lyman mold

The right hand bullet was made from Linotype and weighs 70 grs. In w.w. alloy it would weigh approx 5% more or about 73 grs.
To reduce the weight of that bullet made from w.w or 20/1 alloy which would be a much better choice of alloy than Lino, your mold could be shortened, reducing the length of the g.c. shank by a machinist.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

W30wcf:
Thank you for that photo with lengths noted. I measured the new lyman mold measures about .605" nose to base. it seems this design has 'grown' over the years.

Now to think on what to do now for my desired 67 grain bullet.

Have an Enjoyable Thanksgiving.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[w30wcf]

Chev. William,
If I get a chance this weekend I will take one of the .605" bullets and trim the g.c. shank back a bit at a time and check the weights to give you some idea of how much of the g.c. shank will need to remove. Since the bullet is made from Lino a final weight of 64 grs. or so would = approx a 67 gr. weight in w.w.

Thank you for the Thanksgiving wishes.
The same to you and yours.

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

Chev. Williams,
For every .015" of heel removed the weight drops by about 1 grain. The best thing to do would be to send the mold to whomever will be doing the casting and have them make a few bullets in the alloy they will be using. Weigh the bullets to get an average weight and have the mold shortened by the amount required to = 67 grains.

w30wcf

[Chev. William]

Sound like a good plan. Now I need to wait for more income to pay for the work.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[blackbahart]

just joined and recently picked up a winchester low wall in 25 rf

[blackbahart]

this low wall I also converted to center fire and made up 150 cases from 22 hornet with 85 gr cast bullets and 4 gr of unique .For the rough bore it groups aprox 1 1/2 a 50 yards.

[Chev. William]

Very Nice! I bet you enjoy shooting it a Lot! The 85 Grain might be better at around 100 yards or more than the original .25-10 RF (.25 Stevens Long) 67 grain bullets.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I received a PM requesting I write up my Best Method of making .25 Stevens Cases and after thinking about it, decided to post the results on this Thread as a condensed set of notes:

Tools used;
RCBS "Primer Pocket Swager Tool Kit plus a 3/16 ID Fender Washer.
Piece of .2500" Drill rod with end tapered from about .180" to .2500" over a length of 1/2 inch.
Lee .25ACP Carbide Reloading Die Set, with the Sizing die verified as open from top of Carbide ring to threaded area (one of my sets had an internal 'burr' that extended into the Die Bore and caused deformation of the Mouth of cases).
Shell Holders for both .22 Hornet, AND .25ACP cartridges.
A Strong Reloading Press (RCBS "RC" Type Works).
An "H" Shell holder Adapter (nominally adapts replaceable shell holders to fit a Hollywood Press and I use it to hold a Shell holder in a Drill Press Vise).
A Half Inch Capacity Drill press (either Bench or Floor model).
"C" clamps.
Machinist's Drill Press vise with a Vertical 'V' groove in one Jaw a 3" or 4" is sufficient.
Large Rifle Cleaning Patch saturated with case lubricant.
3/16" or 7/32" Long Shaft Pin Punch ( with body relieved to fit the Bore of the Lee Sizing Die threaded Decapper end).
Hammer.
Case Trimmer set up for .25 Stevens Cases (a pilot made to fit the formed case Inside Diameters is Required).
#8 Machine Screw Drill/counterbore.
#2 Twist Drill (ADDED: A Sharp 7/32" Twist Drill is also usable.)
.22LR "Freeland" Match Grade Finish Chamber Reamer (PTG makes them).


Parent Case used:
.22 Hornet unfired Empty cases ( I have my best results with Privy-Partisan, "PPU", cases).

Method:
1. Set up .2500" Drill Rod expander punch in Drill press Chuck, Tighten Hard to hold it against both push and pull forces.
2. Place Vise on Drill Press Table and place "H" adapter in vise so its shank is held in the "V" Groove.
3. Install a .22 Hornet Shell Holder in the "H" adapter.
4. Carefully align the Shell holder Center under the tip of the Expander punch (the tip of the punch may be lightly run into the Primer hole in the Shell Holder to verify position, Clamp vise combination rigidly to the Drill Press Table (you do NOT want the Vise to lift when you extract the expander punch).
5. Place a .22 Hornet case in the Shell Holder.
6. Lower the tip of the Expander punch into the mouth of the case about 1/8 inch then retract it.
7. Rotate the case about 1/8 turn in the Shell holder.
8. Lower the tip of the Expander Punch into the mouth of the case an additional 1/8 inch over the previous insertion then retract again.
9. Repeat steps 7 and 8 until the Neck and Shoulder have been expanded to .250" inside Diameter, minus Brass spring back.
NOTE: make sure the punch enters the mouth without catching on the mouth as it WILL fold the edge if it does catch on the mouth edge.
10. Remove Expanded Case from Shell Holder and set aside for later further operations.
11. Repeat steps 5 through 10 for each case to be modified.

12. Set up Reloading Press with Lee Carbide .25ACP Sizing Die in place with the Lee Decapping/expanding parts removed.
13. install the Small Primer Pocket Swage Punch on the Press Ram.
14. Place the Stripper Cup over the Swage Punch.
15. Place the 3/16 ID Fender Washer on top of the Stripper Cup and over the Swage Punch.

Note: I found that Shipping Tape wrapped around the Stripper Cup and folded over the edge of the Fender washer will hold the washer in place nicely.

16. Wipe the outside of a Expanded Hornet case with the Saturated Cleaning Patch.
17. Place the Lubed Case on the the tip of the Swage punch.
18. With a Smooth continuous motion force the case into the sizing die until the case rim touches the bottom of the die.
19. Lower the Ram.
20. insert the Pin Punch into the top of the Die and insure its tip enters the case mouth and seats on the inside base of the Case.
21. Strike the pin Punch with the Hammer to drive the Case out of the Die.

NOTE: This will take several strikes with the Hammer.

22. Set the Resized case aside for further operations.
23. Repeat steps 16 through 22 for each case to be sized.

NOTE: There will be a roll of displaced Brass just above the Rim on each case processed to this point. This 'roll' needs to be removed before further work on the cases can be performed. It is best and easiest to use a lathe to trim the 'roll' off but it can be done in a Drill Press Chuck with a File. I will presume you will find a suitable means of trimming the 'roll' and have completed all the cases formed to this point, and continue with the method steps.

24. Trim Cases to 1.125"+/-.002" for Stevens Long replacements.

NOTE: This gives a .25 Stevens Long CF replacement case similar to the ".25-10 Halstead" Except it is suitable for .250" diameter bullets instead of .257" diameter bullets.

NOTE: if you wish to make Adapter Cases to use .22 Rim fire blanks and balls or bullets, then the Following steps will work.

25. Set up Drill Press and vise so as to center a Case held base up in the "V" groove under the Chuck.
26. Insert the #8 Machine Screw combination Drill/Counterbore in the Chuck.
27. Drill the Primer Pocket out and 'kiss' the rim with the counter bore (if wishing to have a 'Tight 22 RF rim rebate) or to a depth of .040" (if wishing a 'loose' 22 RF rim Rebate).
28. Set case aside for further operations.

29. Replace Combination Drill/counterbore in the chuck with the #2 Drill(or 7/32" Drill).
30. Install a pilot drilled case in the Vise.
31. Drill/ream the Base of the cartridge to .221"(#2 Drill size)(or .2185", the 7/32 Drill size).
32. Remove and set aside the drilled base case for further operations.
33. Repeat steps 30 through 32 until all cases are processed.

34. Replace the #2 Drill in the chuck with the .22LR "Freeland" Match Grade Finish Chamber Reamer.
35. Insert a Drilled base case in the Vise.
36. Ream, at SLOW Speed/Hand Turning the Chuck, the Case base to the proper depth (for "Loose Rebate", until reamer 'rebate edge' is just at the counterbore face and For "Tight Rebate", until the reamer 'rebate edge' has cut a .040" deep rebate in the base of the case).
37. Remove the finished Adapter Case from the Vise and set aside for further operations.

38. Remove Reamer from chuck and return it to its protective package.

39. Check all CF cases for internal burrs and reduced size flash hole (use the Decapping Punch to check flash hole diameter).
39A. Check all Adapter cases for Burrs in inside of case base.
40. I recommend tumbling the Completed cases in Crushed Walnut Shell medium to remove the lubricant.

This should give you a good basis for your own conversion process.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Abert Rim]

Chev., is there an epilogue to this fascinating thread?

[Chev. William]

Yes there is. I went further on trying various combinations of Tooling and Parent cases and did find another Case that can be reformed to yield CF replacement cases for the .25 Stevens Cartridge.
The Search and results are chronicled in the Following Threads on this Forum web site (all are locate-able by searching for ".25 Stevens" in all areas with 'Exact Words" disabled and arranged by "date").

.250/.257 Cartridges to .25ACP/.25 Stevens
The 6.35x32mmSR STEWART "Mildcat", a potential Cheap

6.35x28.6mmSR Stewart, a Viable Modern Cartridge

and on a further Project under way to use These cartridges:

Converting a Ruger .22WMR 'Single Six' to

Due to my Computer screen not displaying the FULL titles of each thread, the above truncated titles are the first few words of each thread's title.

As a Summary:
I discovered the 5.7x28mm cartridge is reformeable to Proper diameters with a multiple step diameter reduction process.
The first completed formed Case comes out 'short but usable as a equivalent of the ".250ALRM" 1.250" long Case.
It is now Published as the "6.35x32mmSR Stewart" Cartridge.
The Second completed formed and trimmed Case, made from the 'shortest' of the Above results, are equivalent to the ".250ALS" 1.125" Long case.
It is now Published as the "6.35x28.6mmSR Stewart" cartridge.
I have Acquired a Ruger .22 Caliber 'Single Six' Revolver that is in the Process of being fitted with a 10-5/8 inch Lothar Walther '.25ACP/6.35 browning Barrel and three Interchangeable 8-shot reproduction cylinders cut for:
A.) .25ACP Cartridge (as a baseline for Testing using Commercial Cartridges).
B.) .250ALS/6.35x28.6mmSR Stewart (limited to 1.400" overall cartridge length).
C.) .250ALRM/6.35x32mmSR Stewart (limited to 1.400" overall Cartridge length).
This Revolver was verified as suitable for .22WMR use by my Gun Shop by a call to Ruger with the Serial Number before Purchase. The reproduction cylinders were Purchased from 'Numerich Arms' along with replacement 'hand' for my gunsmith to trim so the 8-shot cylinders properly index in the Frame. He is also converting the Revolver from RF to CF use.

What Prompted the further investigations, and the Investment in added tooling to accomplish the Projects was the general 5 percent loss in forming the Hornet cases down in diameter.
Forming down the 5.7x28mm cases now Yields 100% usable formed cases with NO forming losses.

5.7x28mm "once fired" cases are available presently at about $80/1000 cases compared to about $32/100 cases for New PPU Hornet ones.

Being Retired and having limited "discretionary spending" funds made this more Interesting.

Have a Safe and Very Merry Christmas Holiday Season and Enjoy a Wonderful New Year.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Amartin]

any body now where I can get a few of these old rimfire rounds

If people want ammo y’all going to have to request it from ammo makers I did and they said that they haven’t heard of that request and it needs to be requested more and then they might make it if they get enough request if people request it is the only way there will be new ammo made go to Aguila Ammunition website and go to contact then where it said message and tell them that they should make 25 Rimfire

[Chev. William]

Thanks for that Hint. I will try following it myself.

Further on my .25 'Stevens' CF Wildcatting:

- 1. A published .25ALRM of nominal 1.250 Case Length made from once fired 5.7x28mm brass.
- 2. A published .25ALS of nominal 1.125" Case length also made from once fired 5.7x28mm brass (similar to .25 Stevens RF Case length).
- 3. A published .25MACP of nominal 1.024"-1.055" Case length made from once fired 5.7x28mm brass (similar to .22WMR case length).
- 4. A published .25ALS of nominal 0.960" Case length made from once fired 5.7x28mm Brass (similar to .22WRF case length).
- 5. A wildcat based upon swaging down the .25ACP case to .250" diameter is similar to the .22 Winchester Automatic RF cartridge or the .221 Askins CF cartridge depending on the Trim length.
- 6. A wildcat based upon swaging down the .25ACP case to .246" diameter is similar to the .22 Remington Auto RF cartridge.
- 7. A wildcat based upon swaging down the .25ACP case to .226" diameter is similar to the .22 Lonmg/Long Rifle except it is CF.

I now have Two Custom Ruger handguns converted to .25ACP or similar Cartridges:
First; a Ruger Convertible .22 CAL Single Six modified to CF, and fitted with a 10-5/8" barrel along with Eight Shot cylinders for .25ACP, .25ALR, .25MACP, .25ALS, and .25ALRM used for Load development.
Second; a Ruger Standard .22LR Auto MKII Pistol converted to CF and fitted with a 8-1/8" long .25ACP barrel.

Chev. William