25 stevens rimfire

[Chev. William]

Today I proposed a 'Wildcat' cartridge to Ammoguide Interactive for inclusion in their cartridge data base. it is a .25 Stevens 'Intermediate" in both RF and CF types with a case length of .750" and other dimensions simialar to the other .25 Stevens RF rounds except the rim maximum proposed is .350" to allow easy use of .22 Hornet parent cases to be reformed and trimmed to work.

The proposed length is about half way between the Short, at .515", and the Long, at 1.125", and would take around 6.5 to 7.0 grains fo black powder.
Bullets would be 50 grains to 67 grains and .251" or so diameter.

I am hoping AG accepts the submission.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 2014JUN27: still no results on the proposal I made to "Ammoguide Interactive".
Oh Well.
Best Regards,
Chev. William
Added 2014JUL18: still no Response.
Chev. William

Added 20140812: still no Response.
Chev. William

[SSGOldfart]

Keep after it maybe someday you'll get it done

[Chev. William]

For those Interested: There is an 1885 Winchester low wall Half Round/half Octagon barrel that is marked "Rebore'd & Rifl'd by J. Stevens A. & T. Co" on Ebay (auction number 380925366299) with ten hours remaining. the current bids are at $199 so it seems it will sell.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

The auction closed. The Barrel went for $199.99 plus packaging and Shipping Fee.
Sounded like a Very Nice .25 Stevens RF Barrel reportely with a Very Clean and Shiny Bore.
Seller was "drwinchester" the winner is only id'd as 'a...u'.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

Spent a Warm Father's Day Sunday afternoon neck expanding and Down sizing a batch of 100 used .22 Hornet Brass to make parent cases fo rmy .25 Stevens Experiments. one case neck split while expanding so it wil get shortened to remove the split area. The 99 sized ones are being tumbled in Walnut Shell medium to remove the tarnish from years of storage dirty in the original Remington Peters boxes and expanded styrene carriers. It looks like the second .25ACP Carbide has only set back about .010" so far. Much Talk on TV News of Iraq and ISIS, but no enlightenment found. The over 4000 American Serviceman's Lives Lost seem to have been Squandered by This Current Administration in it's rush to 'get out' of the War. Now What will be done about the Rising Al. Q "Extreme Radical" offshoot ISIS?

Best Regards,
Chev. William

ADDED 2014JUN27: I have continued with the conversion of .22 Hornet brass to parent cases for .25 Stevens diameter cases. Eariler I picked up a used RCBS "RC" press fo r$30 and after removing 'crud' and corrosion from the ram, and oiling it and all pivot points, put it into use in the case forming processes. It turns out that this "RC" press has enough power to form Hornet brass to .25 Stevens sizes, including 'coining' the rim to correct thickness, in one press cycle if I use both arms and my full upper body force on the handle. Much faster than my previous "JR-3" press that required multiple cycles and incremental adjusting of the sizing die to do the same diameter forming but NOT the rim coining.

Also bought a "#8 Cap Screw Combination Drill and Counterbore" that cuts a .290" diameter rebate, for a .22 Blank rim, in trial adapter case. It's pilot drill leaves a roughly .176" diameter pilot hole that needs to be opened out to fit the .22 blank body diameter. it is "McMaster-Carr part number 29445A13" and is reasonable in cost, even with the shipping.

The .290" rebate diameter leaves a small 'rim' even in a Case with a rim OD of .346" and if cut to only .040" deep in a case rim of .050" will leave sufficient case rim for head space and extraction. This is for a Blank Adapter case for a .25 Stevens RF Rifle. In one intended for .32 Long RF , the rebate is smaller in diameter than the case body so would be even stronger overall. There is still the need to 'thin' the case rim to clear the tip of the firing pin tip to allow consistent crush of the RF Blanks primer rim, an allowance of about .010" or .012" for 'crush' seems to be sufficient.

I did buy a Reamer supposedly to cut a "match grade .22LR Freeland" Chamber but a trial in a steel 'slug' ended up .230" diameter instead of catalog .224", so a test .22LR cartridge 'rattled' in it. I sent the reamer back to the manufacturer the end of May for Warrantee 'insppection, repair, or replacement', but no results so far.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Further testing of "RC" press in reforming Hornet Brass to parent .25 Stevens Basic brass.
I tried 5 never fired PPU cases that previously has been sized to body diameter. The "RC" coined the rims down to .050" just like the used R-P brass I originally tried.

I Still have had no reply on the ".22LR Freeland" reamer I sent in to the manufacturer.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20140812: I did receive the reamer back and it now cuts good tight .22RF chambers in the Brass I have tried it in to date.
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Revised 20140706: The .22RF Freeland reamer arrived back from the Manufacturer, PTG, the Week of 1st July but I have not tried it out yet, I do not have another 'dummy chamber slug' to run a .22LR Match Grade Chamber into at the moment.

I now have 50 never fired PPU reformed Hornet cases downsized, coined, trimmed and turned to .25 Stevens Replacement case dimensions, except i left the rims somewhat bigger in diameter, to better fit the Original Stevens Barrel Rim Rebates that I have in hand, which all seem to measure rim diameters of .348" to .350" so my rims are trimmed to .344" to .346". So far all 50 are CF versions but I may convert some to "RF Adapter cases" to verify my tooling for that process. These will be 'Centered' adapter rather than 'offset' adapter design.

There are an additional 50 of the new PPU cases tha tare waiting fo rrim diameter trimming so I still hav esome work on these yet ot go, in addition to some .327FM and .25-20ss basic and .32S&W Long cases to be sized to .32 RF diameters. and trimmed to various lengths for m "Extra Short" to "Extra Long" and several lengths in between.

My Gunsmith is back at work again after his first Hip replacement surgery and there is soem progress on one of my 1894 Action 'upgrades' but it is still a ways from shooting condition as he still needs to make one more pivot screw and them try out the two used stocks I left him to see if either is near correct fit. Then after Test firing, i twil get fine bead blasting and a finish applied as this one was too pitted to be a polished finish and still retain Receiver strength for shooting.

We did trial fit of a .25 Stevens barrel and one of my replacement PPU homemade cases in this action and it seems to close and lock up properly so I may be lucky in the 'head space' area. The Case slipped into the chamber and 'dropped out easily to boot, a fine test so far.

The second 1894 Action in his hands has a much better condition exterior an dwill be left with the original remaining finish in place., which is why he is doing the 'fitting of pivot replacements in the one he is, to preserve the remaining finish on the 'good one'.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I spent the last few days preparing parent cases For the .25 Stevens Family of cartridges.
These latest ones are made with my Current Set of tooling and I have modified some of them to be Rimfire adapters using my new Cutters/Tooling.

1. Started out with used R-P .22 Hornet Brass, Expanded the necks and shoulders to .250" inside diameter, then used my "RC" press, the .25ACP Carbide sizing die, and the 'RCBS Primer Pocket Swaging Tool Kit', with an added Fender Washer, to form the cases Full length, including 'coining' the rims down, to .25 Stevens Case diameters and rim thickness.

2. Trimmed a group of the parent cases to .25 Stevens Length (1.125" roughly), and using a Battery Drill Motor and a Fine Single Cut Mill File, finished the Rims to thickness and diameter (.346" to .348" diameter by .060" thick) to fit my Stevens Barrels chambered for the .25 Stevens Rf cartridge.

3. I then Set up my "#8 Cap screw combination Drill and Counterbore in my Drill Press over a Machinist Vise C-Clamped to the Press table positioned so a Case clamped in the Vise "V" would be centered under the Chuck and its Tool. The Drill/Counterbore needs slow feed as it is sharpened for Steel, not Brass, cutting. The Drill Press depth stop was used to limit counterbore depth to less than the rim thickness (depth of counterbore cut was set to about .040", leaving about .010" rim metal thicknes).

4. The same setup was used with a #2 Drill to open the case hole from about .179" to about .219".

5. The Same setup was used with a "Match Grade .22LR Freeland" Chamber reamer to open the through hole in the case head to fit 'Tightly' a .22 Blank.

6. Using a separate, smaller, Machinist Vise on my Loading Bench and the same Mill file, I cut a Firing pin Clearance slot in one side of the nearly finished adapter case rim.

7. I then deburred and smoothed the the 'finished' Adapter Case base and rim before primer/load was inserted.

8. Inserted a .22 Caliber Grade 1 Power Tool Load Blank and use dmy loading press to push it home in the Adapter, using a Dummy Chamber and the Stripper cup from the Swage Kit WITHOUT the Swage Punch.

9. Polished the finished loaded Adapter using the Battery Drill motor and a Green Scotchbrite pad.

These 'loaded' Blank adapter cases have the existing Grade 1 PTL powder loading of 1.31 Grains of flake, fast burning, powder and I intend to use them to verify I have enough Firing pin clearance to set them off in a Stevens Favorite Rifle fitted with a '22LR' Breech Block and a .25 Stevens Chambered Barrel.

Later, after reloading and reassembling the Stevens Favorite with a .25 Stevens RF Breech Block and the same .25 Stevens barrel, I will check the firing pin will fire the Blank, as my measurements appear to allow.

This series of tests will verify I can fire my Stevens Favorite with either a "CF" Breech Block, a ".22RF" Breech Block, or a ".25RF" Breech Block assembled in to my action.

Another project in the works is to reform some .327 FM Brass to .32 Extra Long Dimensions and also cut some of them for .22RF Blanks as Adapter cases. I received some Starline made .327FM new Empty Brass to use in the conversions.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Spent Yesterday and this morning working to get my "PhotoBucket" account back and running again, in the process apparently lost the previously used links to the posted photos.

But I did get a new photo of my .25 Stevens RF/CF case forming project uploaded and titled so here is the link:

This photo is a cropped detail of a larger image and shows: a fired .22PTL Blank (fired in one of the Adapter Cases I made); side and bottom views of the completed .25 Stevens CF case; bottom view of pilot drilled and counterbored RF case; bottom view of #2 Wire Size Drilled RF Case; Bottom view of Match Grade .22LR 'Freeland' chamber reamed RF Adapter Case; Side and bottom view of Adapter case with PTL blank inserted; side views of, in order .22 Caliber, Grade 1 (Gray) PTL, Grade 2 (Brown) PTL, Grade 3 (Green) PTL, and Grade 4 (Yellow) PTL Unfired Blanks.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Over the last four evenings I have worked on Forming .327 Federal Magnum Brass down to .32 Extra Long diameters using my RCBS "RC" press and a two stage sizing process. In the first stage they are reduced to .329" diameter using a Lee push Through Sizing Die, this resulted in two of 50 cases being Buckled durign the sizing operation. I believe this is the result of my 'pausing' in the middle fo the process when the sizing force needed required I stand up and apply almost my full body weight via a two Straight armed grip, to the end of the operating handle. Once I realized the neede dforce was so much higher than sizing Hornets into .25 Stevens cases, i completed the group with no more 'lost' cases.
The Second stage fo the Sizing operation takes the case to .318" diameter using a .32 Long Colt Carbide sizing die, again requiring two straight armed Standing body force on the handle end.
so far I have final sized twenty cases and Trimmed the displaced Brass 'Roll' off ten of them.

I have queried RCBS about purchasing a handle for their "Ammomaster 2" press which looks about 6" longer than the "RC" press handle.

It looks like I will also need to reinforce the Table Top also, to withstand the added forces.
Perhaps adding a section of 2"x 6" about 24" long under where the press is located, glued and Screwed to the bottom of the Laminated, 1" thick, Marine Plywood Top of my home built 2' x 8' portable folding table.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Saturday Afternoon's mail delivery brought my new, longer, handle and after supper, I installed it on my "RC" press. This "Ammomaster 2" handle is the same diameters as the original "RC" handle but both 4" longer and changes the grip from a Cylinder along the shaft to a Ball End, concentrating the applied force a the end of the handle lever. This makes reforming cases easer due to the lowered force required.
After fitting the handle, I processed 25 each .327 Federal Magnum cases to downsize them to the diameters fo .32 Extra Long/.32 Long Colt cases compared to about 10 cases I found comfortable forming in one sessin with the old handle.
I am sure the forming forces for downsizing .22 Hornet cases to .25 Stevens Diameters will be similarly reduced so more can be done in a given session.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Tuesday, July 29th, is a Good Day. My Gunsmith completed fitting the first 1894 Stevens favorite action with upgraded Strength screws and a new Extractor and firing pin. it fired some .25 Caliber PTL loads but required 'double strikes' (fire, cock, and refire to discharge blank) measuring the resultant firing pin strikes, it appears the blank is being moved in the adapter/chamber with the first strike and then is solid for the second strike.

I brought the action and the barrel home ($150.00 labor charge) and did some checking and measuring of the chamber. It appears that the Rim rebate is Conical from wear and corrosion from around a Century of use. A .27 Caliber PTL sits in it about .009" to .011" below the barrel breech face and a .25 Caliber PTL Blank sits about .026" to .028" below the breech face plane.

Since the test rounds he used were made up of brass tubes cut to length and a .25 PTL blank pushed into the end using a .25ACP shell holder and a blocking washer to seat it with a small space between top of rim and brass tube end to allow for the Extractor; Now I know why the 'double Strike" is needed.

I will be taking the barrel back to the Gunsmith tomorrow, along with some of my tooling, some .27 Cal PTL Blanks, some .25 PTL Blanks, and one box of Western .25 Stevens (Long) RF cartridges so he can see how the originals fit these chambers. I will also take a second .25 Stevens barrel that I have already "Squared Up" the rim rebate using a cutter in a portable drill motor (done carefully and slowly with frequent stops to check progress). the 'Squared Up" barrel now has about a .060" deep rebate and a mostly 'square corner between chamber bore to rebate bottom and rebate bottom to rebate side wall. I will let the Gunsmith put a correct radius on the Chamber to Rebate corner.

There is still a difference in seating depth between the .25 and .27 blanks.

This I will discuss with the Gunsmith, along with the 'head space' correction(s) needed.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Saturday, August 2nd, I took two more used 1894 Breech blocks and a Lever-link set to the Gunsmith to give him more choices on which ones to rework to make a CF Breech Block Set.

I also took him some more Assembled Test Cartridges, these are 'second generation' versions of the "Brass Tube" design/style construction utilizing Grade 3 PTL Blanks for Brimer/propellant and with either 63 Grain or 51 grain bullets seated in them.

Later I stopped at a Hobby Shop and bought 5ea 3ft lengths of "9/32"x.014" Wall Brass Tubing and have already cut one up for 31 Blanks to make more cartridges out of. there is enough of the first tube left to make a couple more blanks with a different set up to cut them. I used a lathe with a sharp 60 degree carbide insert bit set so one side was cutting a square end and the other was leving a champfered end on the cut piece. With a Live center used as a Feed Stop for the tube stock through a 6 jaw chuck the cuts went fairly quickly.

The blanks come out much more uniform this way. The previous blanks were cut by hand using a rotary tubing cutter and came out at various lengths, I used the best group to make the Test Cartridges and the rest will be 'salvaged' fo rvariousl sub length cartridges down to what ever minimum length allows the PTL Bland and the Bullet to both be seated in the tubing at the same time, Probably around .520" to .600" 'case length.

Case Lengths (with PTL Blank seated) I wish to test in the Future include: .500"; .625"; .750"; .875"; .1.000"; and of course 1.125" after I get the chamber in one of my barrels properly reamed to make up for the rebate depth after re-cut to square its bottom.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Noticed that ONE of my .25 Stevens RF Barrels, one in which the bore is very pitted, has a chamber that will accept a 9/32" (about .283" outer diameter) Brass tube in the Chamber area. This is quite 'worn' or corroded as mostly they balk at .278"-279" diameters more than 1/2" long. Obviously the original chambers have over 100 years of use/corrosion to erode them to larger diameters.

Now I need to decide it I should save up and have this one barrel relined or try to use it as is.

Decisions, decisions, decisions, to be made in the future.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[bobby65]

This is a very good thread I will keep up with it. thanks for all the info.

[Chev. William]

DRAT! The 'tool' I had been using to force brass tubing through my .25ACP Carbide sizing die failed.
So now I need to come up with a 'better tool'; one possible solution is in the works. I received a pair fo Lee 'Lube and Size Kit' replacement .284" push punches that I will need to reduce in diameter to fit the Carbide Sizing die.
Now to work out the way to accurately reduce them to the needed diameter.
Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

I received my two Lee push punches and have made a holding 'split collar' holding tool to allow turning the punch pin down to fit through my Carbide ring sizing die.

The first punch came out loose in the Carbide ring.

I tried it out with 30 pieces fo cut Brass tubing and 29 out of the 30 came out as desired.
The 30th one got 'stuck' and required MUCH more force to complete its pass through the sizing die. It ended up with an extruded 'skirt' with a .004" wall thickness.

This first punch is useable for my purposes in making replacements for .25 Stevens RF cases.

Eventually I will cut the second punch to fit closer in the Carbide sizing die ring.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

Saturday morning I sized 129 pieces of tubing to make parents for my 'Second Generation' .25 RF blank adapters for .25 Stevens substitute cartridges. Out of 129, 12 Extruded Skirts around the punch end. 12 out of 129 is acceptable yield but not a Good yield.
It looks like I an goin gto need to machine the second punch to a closer fit to my sizing Carbide ring die.
Now come the tedious task fo trimming them to length.
Best Regards.
Cehv. William

[Chev. William]

I completed Trimming some of the Tubing (9/32" x .014" Wall sized down to .274" OD in a .25ACP sizing die) to length and assembled a pair of 'test' cartridges using a Grade 4 .25 Caliber PTL blank and a 63 grain .258" diameter RFN Lead Bullet.
I pressed the Blank in one end of a trimmed tube and, after belling the other end, seated the bullet using a .25ACP seat/crimp die.
I did run the case in far enough to crimp the case tube to the bullet just at the 'crimp groove' in the bullet.

Wednesday I took the test cartridges to my Gunsmith's shop and we temporarily assembled my strengthened pivots 1894 Stevens Action to a 'way to much head space old Stevens '.25 Stevens' Barrel. It ended up with about .080" head space form breech face to cartridge end when seated in the barrel.

This is a deliberate test to see if the tubing is suitable for continued use as a cartridge case.

The Cartridge was fired successfully.
The Blank moved back in the tube as both moved back in the chamber toward the Breech face.
The 'unsupported' blank body just forward of the original rim 'ballooned' out to form a second 'rim'.
The original Rim 'Ballooned out until it formed a "T" shaped vent hole in the upper section.
The Bullet exited the barrel.
The Fired tube case showed expansion to fit the Chamber, growing from a .274" OD before firing to a .282" OD after firing.
The Blank end had a slight 'Bell' to it.
The Bullet end still had the Crimp in it, so the bullet left with a reduced diameter 'heel' I presume.
In spite of the Venting, my gunsmith reported a 'loud muzzle blast' or 'report' so the venting was near the end of bullet travel within the barrel.
It appears the edges of the tear 'vent' were rolled away rather than bit being torn off.
No detectable damage was found in the 1894 Stevens Action, the Breech Block face is still perpendicular to the Barrel center line and at the same distance from breech face to Rear face of Receiver Barrel Socket, pivots are still straight and linkage is tight.

Conclusions:
The Tubing is adequate for use as an Adapter Case between .25 Cal PTL Blanks (of nominal .248" OD) to .25 Stevens rifle chambers ( the original cartridge was .276" diameter and the worn chambers about .283" to 284" diameter).
The tubing either should not be crimped to the bullet OR the tubing 'neck should be reamed to reduce the .014" wall to something around .008" to .009" thickness.
The Blank's wall failed rather than the tubing wall, and at that only after being greatly distorted due to the excess head space of the experiment.
Normal Head space provisions would most likely not have caused the blank rim to fail as it did in this experiment, since the Blank moved to the rear far enough so that the original rim was completely outside the design chamber rim rebate.

Best Regards,
Chev. William



Photo of the Rim Fire Development designs to date.
Blue is Grade 2 (replaces Brown as color code)
Green is Grade 3
Yellow is Grade 4
Red is Grade 5
The charged cases with no 'space' between case and rim are 'Series 1'.
The charged cases with a small gap between case Body and rim are 'Series 2'.

[Chev. William]

Reading through a copy of "The Handloader's Manual of Cartridge Conversions" by John J., and Judty Donnelly, published in 2011; I ran across, on page 147, a writeup and dimensioned drawing of a "25-10 Halsted".
This is a sized down Center Fire .22 Hornet case to be used in rifles originally chambered for the ".25 Stevens RF" cartridge.
This is parallel to my experiments with sizing .22 Hornet cases to make replacements in to both RF and CF versions for the .25 Stevens Long RF cartridge.

It is noce to know others have been down the same path in getting these "Obsolete" and Orphaned caliber Cartridges and Rifles into shooting again.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[Chev. William]

This Afternoon, Wednesday August 27th, I got a call form my gunsmith to come and pick up the Strengthened 1894 Stevens Favorite Action and two Stevens ".25 Stevens Long RF" barrels that he had ready for my Range testing. So i went in, paid $75.00 for the work, took the Action and two barrels home, fitted a Stock to the action. packed up the now complete rifle action and barrels with some of my 'First and Second Generation' Reloadable Rim fire cartridges, and off to the 'Angeles Shooting Ranges' for a session of testing.

It did not go well.

Every Cartridge was difficult to extract as the Action extractor would NOT hold the rim available on the cartridges.

I had numerous "light Firing Pin Strikes" when attempting to fire cartridges of both designs.

Two Cartridges that did fire resulted in the case stuck in the chamber (one in each of the two barrels) and the fired blank case came out of the case without releasing the case.

One stuck casee body did come out with a Cleaning rod inserted from the muzzle, but the other did not. In both cases the 'blank' did move back and vent to the outside due to rim failures. This is NOT Good Results but I have not yet dissected the the failures nor cleaned the two barrels as the outing also resulted in a Vehicle Start Failure that took more physical Effort than I should have exerted to get it started, so I got my self home and went to bed for a time of recovery. it is now after 2300 hours PDT as I type this 'interim Report'. I will get the rifle and barrels out of the vehicle Tomorrow morning and do the clean up, etc.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

Added 20140828 0830PDT: Started cleaning the two barrels and the 1894 Action this morning and observed that the barrels do NOT appear to be Head Spaced correctly.

Barrel #1 has a gap between Breech Block and Barrel rear face of about .025" PLUS a Rim Rebate depth of .057". The Rim of the .25 Stevens Long Rim Fire cartridge is between .045" and .050" thick. My 'First and Second Generation' Reloadable Rim Fire designs have a rim Thickness of .040" to .043" so the effective Head Space for Barrel #1 is between .030" and .040" from fully seated Rim in the Rebate to the front of the Breech face. or, measured from Breech face to front of Rebate, about .080". this is probably why I had 'Light Firing Pin Strikes' and rim 'blowout Venting' experiences with this barrel.

Barrel #2 has a Gap of about .040" between barrel rear face and the Breech Block Face when seated in the action. The Rebate is not measurable as there is still a Case body stuck in the Chamber, which interferes with the measurement.
BUT .040" is WAY TOO MUCH gap!

The Breech Face is square and parallel to the Barrel so it appears NOT to have been damaged by the 'Blowouts'.

I will be taking this action and barrels back to my Gunsmith Today for his review and corrective action.

Best Regards,
Chev. William

[John Boy]

Chev - I know you have done a lot of work to develop a 'parent' case for the Stevens 25RF ...
But quick and easy:
* Bush the firing pin
* Reform 22 Hornet cases to 25 Hornet
* Load with 8grs of FFg
Go to the range and have fun with the obsolete Stevens 25RF. That's what I did to my '94 Stevens