Bullshop, 22 CCM

[BeeMan]

Bullshop,

You have mentioned the 22 CCM a few times lately. A quick search of the web revealed little more than the Accurate Arms load data. Tell me about it, where to get brass, etc.

BeeMan

[TDB9901]

Yes, please fill us in. I must be quite out of the loop, as I had never heard of it before.

Tom

[Johnch]

I had a 17 CCM a short while a few years back
Sold it because it was a pain to load for , these fingers just don't do 17 cal bullets

Think of a 22 mag or 17 HMR , but centerfire.
My cases were Fiocchi , I shot the loaded ammo that came with the rifle ( 2 hand rifle) to get brass
Loaded ammo , brass and dies can be had from Cooper
I used Accurate Arms load data

Sweet rifle , but I couldn't keep $1000.00+ wraped up in a toy I didn't shoot
Haven't looked lately , but with fancy wood and extras , you could drop twice that now, maybe more .
Not sure what a plain rifle costs these days

Johnch

[floodgate]

Beeman, TDB:

Ackshully, the .22 CCM ("Cooper Center-fire Magnum") is the THIRD incarnation of the old .22-10-45 Extra-Long Centerfire Maynard, introduced around 1882 in the Maynard single-shots. The original cases were rimmed, a straight 0.250" or so OD and about 1-3/16" long and took an 0.226" - 0.228" flat-point, plain-base bullet*. The original cases were of the very weak folded-head variety; when they went to the drawn "solid head" cases, powder capacity was reduced to 8 grs. BP. The cartridge had a reputation for being finicky, and hard to get accurate shooting from; it was outclassed by the .22 WCF (daddy of the Hornet) and the .22-15-60 Stevens, and pretty well died out by the late 1800's.

It was revived at the end of the 19th century as the .22 "Velo-Dog", for the tiny, folding-trigger, concealed-hammer pocket revolvers that became popular in Europe (the name implies that bicyclists could use them to discourage dogs), usually with jacketed bullets in the 0.226" - 0.230" diameter range, and has been made off-and-on by various manufacturers, including a couple in the US (truly, the "REM-UMC - VD" is a headstamp classic).

Cooper Arms decided to see how far the basic case, as currently made by Fiocchi, could be pushed in a sturdy bolt-action rifle, both as the .22 Cooper Center-Fire magnum - and necked down, as their .17 CCM - with modern 0.224" bullets. They had trouble with quality control in the Fiocchi plant, but finally got a serviceable batch of cases run; I got 100 of the last few nickeled, un-necked .17 CCM cases they had on hand, for use in a "parts" Stevens No. 44 - definitely not up to "magnum" specs; more like a reloadable (SP primer pockets) .22 Long Rifle. Bullshop has been playing with the same concept, in a variety of rifles and handguns, at various loading levels as appropriate for the respective platforms; I still need to get my Stevens up and running (final stock shaping and finshing and installing a set of sights: sporting tang and Beach or globe front).

Cases are no longer available from Cooper (just as well, as the run-of-the-mill Fiocchi Velo-Dog cases are pretty poor), but can be obtained from Buffalo Arms and other sources, usually re-formed from .22 Hornet brass. With care and light loads, they should last just about forever.

floodgate

* with these specs, they are a virtually PRECISE 1/2-scale copy of the .45-90!

[Bullshop]

OH BOY! You done did it now! Cooper mania is alive and well here. Hay how can ya not like a cartridge that can equal its compatition and give ya 3500 shots per lb of powder?
The Cooper was offerd to answer a cry for a reloadable cartridge in the 22 wmr class. Its a very useful performance range but the cost of the RF ammo is a bit too high.
Give us this cartridge and we will worship you they said. So the crowd from Origon left with the kimber equipment and headed for Stevi Mt. hoping to make a name for themselves.
It was a good plan that flopped. The first brass from Red willow Armory(now Ballard of Cody) was turned from bar stock and good for at least one shot. It would most often split on the first.
WHAT! said they. We still only get one shot but now pay twice as much. So soon it was down with the king. Next came new hope from across the water with drawn brass.
At this point it was too late the poisin had already spread.
I have never used the Fiocchi brass so cant say yay or nay on ist performance. I use brass from Shroader Bullet Works and can say without doubt it is a great value. It cost .50 per which seems high but when you consider that I am still using the first lot of brass I first got from them and it hit by actual count 50 relaods 4 years ago. So far I have lost about 10 to split necks and as I said they have likely seen 75 reloads by now. I quit counting at 50 as I felt that was satisfactory. Figuring the brass at .01 per load a box of 50 rounds cost me about $1.50. Thats pretty good for a round that will beat the 22 wmr in energy with any bullet weight by 40%.
As a revolver cartridge it is super accurat and powerful. I have always been a fan of straight wall cases so a 22 straight wall is a natural for me.
I just cant say enough good things about this round. I have mentioned before on the which one if only one questions that pop up here that this is the one. The truth is with precise shot placment it will drop anything that walks.
I once shot it with the NEI #2 and 3.3gn 800X into 1 gallon milk juggs filled with watter. We kept adding juggs to see how many it would take to stop it. Finaly running out of juggs we lined up the last remaning 7. That shot went through all 7 and penitrated the 3/8" plywood backing too.
This is about the greatest cast boolit cartridge ever designed. Think of it as a shrunk down 45/70. One that is extreamly accurate, has no recoil, made to order for small game, and for about $5.00 you can shoot a couple hundred rounds. Whats not to like? Bring back the Cooper it is the rightful king of small bore boolit shooters. Long live the king!
BIC/BS

[BeeMan]

Boy, you guys find some obscure stuff. Very interesting, as was Buffalo Arms web site price of $2 per case. Think I'll be sticking with the Hornet, or maybe the K version of it.

BeeMan

[Dale53]

I have had rather good luck with cast bullets in various .22 centerfire calibers. The .22 Hornet and .221 Fireball are two of them.

In the Hornet, in both a rifle and a TC pistol, I had little difficulty in getting ½" groups at fifty yards (five shot groups) with 3.0 grs of Unique behind the Lyman .225415 or .225438 GC bullets cast of linotype.

In the .221 Fireball in both a TC pistol and a Ruger #3 (rechambered Hornet with custom wood) 4.0 grs of Unique behind the same bullets gave me the same size groups.

Brass for both is inexpensive and available and the cartridges are pretty dern versatile. .221 brass is especially good stuff and strong.

If I was interested in a centerfire small game rifle today, and for whatever reason, was not interested in a .25/20, .32/20, or .32 Magnum (which are great small game rounds) I would much rather have a .22 Hornet or .221 Fireball than a .22 CCM. The rounds are just simply more versatile, there is a ton of loading data on both and they both work VERY well.

Just one man's opinion...
Dale53

[TDB9901]

Yes, I think I'll stick with my Hornet. I have an older H&R Handi with a full(Mannlicher) style stock. I've never seen another Handi with one, but then I apparently don't get around much, so they may not be that unusual..

Anyway, it's a nice little rifle, and I'm hoping it will shoot cast as well as it does J's.(Another one of them "Round Tuits")

Interesting stuff none the less....I had heard of the Velo Dog before, but had no idea that any of it's decendents were still in circulation.

Tom

[Bullshop]

tdb9901
We too have one of the H&R full stock rifles but in 30/30. Wanna trade? I would have to say the same thing that this is the only one I have ever seen.
Nice little rifles indeed. Just seem completely different than the reguler forend rifles . This one has nice sights too but I have not a clue if they are origonal.
I do too like the hornet as many here have often heard. Its just that I have this thing for straight cases and that little cooper case never needs a filler.
BIC/BS

[floodgate]

Dale, etc:

I went with the ".224 XLCF" because it is just about perfectly matched - with "factory equivalent" loads in FFFg or smokeless - for the relatively feeble Stevens #44 action. At those levels, decent cases should last just about forever. I turned a few from half-hard 5/16" brass, finishing off the primer pockets with a Sinclair "Primer Pocket Uniformer", but wouldn't do it for $2 each; I'd rather pay Buffalo's very reasonable price for that job.

floodgate

[TDB9901]

Actually, I was thinking your 30-30 would look really good in my rack beside it's little brother. ......... I'm really happy with the little Hornet so far it shoots as well as I can. Likes Hornady 40gr J's,but I just bought a Bator mold from Mid-South to try in it and our .223's.


Thinking about coming back up your way this summer, if things work out.....
Have an aunt who lives at Salcha.

Tom

[Blackwater]

Has anyone tried the .22 Squirrel? It's the Hornet shortened and with a K-style neck, more or less.

[roadie]

Bullshop,
A couple of questions on your .22 CCM.

#1: Have you tried to work up really light loads, as in "cat sneeze" for it?
I'm thinking probably not, given where you live, the need may not be there for them.

#2: Have you ever checked the case capacity (water) with your cases?

The reason I ask is because I'm finally able to play with a wildcat Hornet I built a while back. It seems to be close to the .22 Squirrel in size, I think mine is a tad longer in the body. I'm thinking it should be close to the .22CCM as far as capacity.
R-P cases hold 9.5gr. of water
W-W cases hold 9.7gr.

I'm using the RCBS-55-FN and 1.5gr. Unique but it's still as loud as a ..22 WRF. I need something a lot quieter for the occasional squirrel or cat , that kinda thing, without getting the whole neighborhood in an uproar. I hate when that happens and my neighbor is a LEO to boot.
I know I can just stuff a .22 pellet in the case but I like the added punch of the 55gr.

Anything you have is much appreciated.
Thanks,
roadie

[Bullshop Junior]

I was doing some google searching since I am considering changing my 22 mag Savage 93 to center fire and I came across this thread. I was going to chamber it for a slightly shortened up version on the 22 CCM so it will fit in the magazine, but this 22 squirrel sounds interesting. I believe the magazine is wide enough for single stack. Does anyone have a cartridge OAL?

[Tom_et]

BTT

More input please

[Janoosh]

Interesting concept. I have a 22 mag martini that I could use for this. More info...puhleeeze..

[Bullshop]

Very good quality brass is available from Shroader Bullet Works in Sandiago Cal. Brass is also available fro Privi in the form of 22 Velodog ammo.
My subsonic load uses .7 that's 7 tenths os a grain of WST. That's 10,000 shots per pound of powder.
My top end load in a rifle will push the Lyman 225415 (modern version) to 2000 fps with 7gn H-110. That's 1000 shots per pound with a very respectable level of performance. Consider that the Federal 22 mag load with the heaviest available bullet weight will only do 1600 fps from a rifle and you have a good idea how the 22 Cooper compares to the 22 WRM.
The easiest barrels to convert to 22 CCM are contender barrels for 22 mag. The 22 CCM reamer only takes out very little barrel metal that as has been said the 22 wrm can still be used since you have both CF and RF firing pins in the Contender.
I am fortunate to still have a model 38 Cooper rifle which is what the 22 CCM was introduced in. Along with that I am also fortunate enough to still have an old model Ruger Single Sx converted to CF and the cylinder reamed to 22 CCM.
Suffice to say that I do not own a 22 RF and have not by any means experienced any shortages of ammo for my 22's

[JeffinNZ]

Can we have photos please?

[Blammer]

this thread is in need of some decent pictures!

or

this thread needs some in decent pictures.

[Bullshop]

Photos of what?