Need a new .357 mold

[cwheel]

Hi all, first post. Figured I'd join and ask the experts. Cast 38's for more than 50 years now, but need to buy a new mold. My IMI timberwolf only seams to feed round nose boolits well. Because this thing goes almost 1800 fps ( through a chrono ) with a pistol load, thinking I need to run GC's as well. Looking at Midway at the Lee and other molds, can't seam to find a round nose in the 150-160gr. range with a gas check. Is such a thing made ?? Would like to run a 6 hole, but would settle for a 4. Any ideas ?? I now run most 38's with a old ( grandfathers ) Lyman 158 GC semi wadcutter mold. These things work well with everything I have except that Timberwolf .357. Semi wad cutters don't feed at all in that. Would appreciate any ideas, thanks,
Chris

[johnly]

While not a GC mold, the Lyman 358430 is a 195 gr. RN and the velocities with the heavier bullet might be reasonable for a plain base mold. Another option might be the RCBS 180 gr GC Sillywet mold.

John

[MikeS]

Another option if you can't find exactly what you're looking for in a production mould would be to check with Tom of Accurate Molds, and see if he can make what you're looking for. He makes custom moulds for about the same price as some of the better production moulds, and you'll be able to get exactly what you're looking for. Checkout his website:
http://www.accuratemolds.com
If you see a design you like, but it isn't a GC design, that's no problem Tom can make any of his designs for a GC. And if you don't see what you're looking for, just email Tom, he can make what you need even if it's not in his current 'catalog' of moulds. BTW, I have no affiliation with Accurate Molds, I'm not even a satisfied customer at this point (but I hope to be one soon, just have to find the money first!), just relaying info I've learned here.

[462]

Not a round nose, exactly, but Lee's 358-158 RNFN is a bevel base design that will readily accept gas checks (an unintended dual purpose design?) and is available in a six-cavity configuration.

[cwheel]

I need to stay away from the heavy boolits because I only want to have 1 load on hand for any given cal. Be able to interchange the rifle loads in pistol and have both do well. When I run a batch in the dillon, a minimum run will be 1000. 38's or .357 will all start at 2500+. The same round will be used in a 2 1/2" S&W model 66 or 6" S&W model 686, on the pistol end as well. Thinking the custom mold might be the way to go in the end. Would be nice to find a Lee 6 hole somewhere, not much money in those. Still have some time to look, working on the last of 10K 230 45acp rounds. Will be ready to start .357 first of the year or so. Thanks for the ideas.
Chris

[FN in MT]

I don't know if your goal is simply something to plink with, or a hunting load, or?

IMHO your LIMITING yourself with this "One Load" idea.

Most anything you fire in the rifle will chrono +200 to +250 FPS faster than out of the pistols anyway. But if you want to get the most out of the rifle a slower powder would work better. Yet that load isn't really optimum in a short pistol bbl.

I'd do TWO loads.

FN in MT

[462]

Chris,
Just to clarify: The Lee 358-158 RF weighs a nominal 158-grains and has a round nose/flat nose profile.

Midway sells the six-cavity for less than $40, however the picture they show is not current. The newer design has a more rounded nose and a bevel base. The picture shows a larger meplat and a plain base.

Midway link: http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct...tNumber=172810

[GabbyM]

Would a Saeco #354 RNFP-gas check 180 grain fit? Or would you want to go that heavy?
To get away from a gas check I’d guess you’d need to go heavier to reduce the velocity. There is the 195 grain Lyman #358430. I don’t even know what a IMI Timberwolf is so have no idea what bullets would work. I’ve both of the mentioned bullets if you’d like to try them out.

[Bula]

Hey 462, that Midway pic looks just like my newer production Lee. The bevel is slight, and the meplat is right on.

Also, I can't seat checks on mine (Hornady's anyways).

Great mold, but accuracy goes out the window when pushed hard in my carbine. 99% of its use is in .38 specials for me.

[462]

Bula,
Perhaps it's my eyes, but it appeared that the Midway picture shows the older, plain base design. You're right, though, that the bevel is slight and much less than that pictured on Lee's web-site.

A gas check will slip onto my boolits, but the bevel may be different than on yours. Try setting the gas check in the sizing die, first, then the boolit.

[MBTcustom]

Not to steer you in another direction, but there is an effective trick that I just heard about on another post that some swear by. If you take a regular cast boolit and put a measured charge of cream-o-wheat between the powder charge and the boolit, it acts like a gas check and will seal the bore. I am going to try this if for no other reason than that it is a heck of a lot cheaper than paying for gas checks. IMHO-FYI

[Wayne Smith]

Chris, you are new here. I would suggest you hang out and perhaps post down in the Group Buy area unless you are in a hurry to get a mold. You can usually find, or ask for and one of our designers will design, just what you need. Usually a whole bunch of others find that they need the same thing! Now you have a group buy going.

If you can't wait call Tom at Accurate Molds or go to Mountain Molds and design your own.

[cwheel]

Not in a hurry at all. The .357's are on the list and will come up sometime after the first of the year. Yes, I realize that the 1 load thing somewhat limits performance. I normaly load about 4K of these at a time and store loose in 4 50cal ammo cans. Would like to be able to just grab rounds from a can, load them in anything, and have them be safe and acurate in any of the firearms I own. More important is when I'm gone, would like the grandkids to be able to use what is left over in the same way and be safe in any of these firearms. What gets lost here is the ability to get up to 1900 - 2000 fps out of this round in a rifle using slower powder and different boolits. The IMI timberwolf looks like a Remington 870 shotgun, only about half the size. Not in production anymore. This pump rifle holds 10 .357 rounds in a tube mag under the barrel, nice fit on the saddle scabbord for a outing with the horses. Very lite weight, and they are a take down design. It is just very picky about what it will feed, and a round nose 150-160 gr seams to work best in this rifle. I also have a Martini single shot falling block rifle with a 24" micro grove barrel. This is early production .310 martini cal that has been rebored to .357mag. This is the rifle I usualy work up loads in. Generaly if it works well in the Martini, it works well with everything else including the pistols. Only exception seams to be the Timberwolf won't feed semi wadcutters well. No, not in a hurry, still have about half of a 10K run left to cast for 45 auto using a Lee 225 round nose. After that a short run of 30 carbine rounds ( 2K ) for the kids to shoot when they visit. All of that should take me into the first of the year. If I can find a new mold by then, can move on to the .357's. I know it doesn't make any sence to do GC for pistol rounds. But I think these same rounds with a GC will do much better in the 18" ( Timberwolf ) and 24" barrels ( Martini ) for hunting, don't mind spending the extra penny or two for this. Thanks for your thoughts,
Chris

[MtGun44]

Until you prove that the GC will do what you say, you are just guessing. I have shot
Lyman 429421 (plain base) in my Win 94 trapper at 1750-1800 fps with excellent results.
Just sayin - you may need a GC at that velocity in that particular gun, but maybe not. For
me the hassle of installing the little boogers is a much bigger deal than the cost. I despise
them and only use them on for real rifle loads that have shown me that they really need
them to work accurately. Some definitely DO need GCs for best results.

Bill

[cwheel]

I agree Bill. But I'm thinking it would be smarter to buy a new mold that is set up for GC and not use them than buying a mold that doesn't have the GC cut and need one. My boolits are harder than most by adding 4X babit to the mix. Still would like to have the option when I work up the new loads. When mixing lead to cast, there is no way to tell what I have, the lead goes back as far as 3 generations of us casting. The old melt out babit acts as a hardening agent, and gets the density right for the weight of the mold. No hardness tester other than the test my grandfather showed me at 10 years old. Hit a boolit with a ball pean hammer, said it should crush to about half and not split or fracture. When this happens, and the weight is right, I cast them. Never a leading problem yet, but would like to have a GC option on a .357 round nose weighing in at 150-160.
Chris

[MtGun44]

Why make them so hard? Are you responding to a real need with your gun - like it won't
work with wheelwts - or just falling for the old wives tale that 'harder is better'? I would
worry that a GC design without the GC would work far more poorly than a PB design. I use
straight wwt alloy for most, but significant amounts of range scrap alloy (~8-9 BHN) now.

I'm all for hardness if it is needed, but in most of my applications (which are pistols) I have
found that I can make almost anything work just fine as far as hardness goess. When I get
great groups and no leading with near max velocity loads in .357 mag at 8 BHN, and
it works in at least 4 different pistols, I just can't buy the "gotta be hard to drive fast"
story. Totally busted as far as I am concerned, at least up to mag pistol velocities.

I would ask some experts here that use GC molds if they have good results with a GC
design without the GC. I do not know the answer to this, only own three pistol GC molds
and never use them, should probably put them on the sale page. Your idea of 'better
safe than sorry' may not actually work if a GC design without a GC doesn't work. My
bet is that somebody here has the answer to that one, at least for their mold and gun.

Bill

[cwheel]

Hardness is a good question. I have lead ingots that date back before WWI. Family has collected and saved lead forever, myself included. I have ingots that have come from almost anything made from lead, melted and poured into ingots at some point in their history. WW's battery, cable sheathing, bullet scrap, plumbers, linotype, you name it. No way to identify what any particular ingot is. I know they all cast soft and heavy for any given mold. What I do is mix these ingots with what I do know is melt out 4X nickle babit. This stuff is hard and lite. Mixing in lots of 40-50 lbs, I'll add the babit until the weight of the mold is matched within 1%. I always thought that if the weight matches the mold, then the density of the lead was close to right. If it passes the grandfathers hammer test, it is cast into small ingots to use in the 2 Lee electric pots I use to cast boolits. If I was to just use the ingots as they are, boolit weight would be all over the place. Getting the " density, and hardness " right gives me something consistant. An example of this is the first pour before mixing in a Lee 45 acp mold that should weigh 225 weighs in around 245 gr. Way to heavy even if the lead was hard enough to shoot without leading the barrel. Most likely all here have noticed that when casting out of any mold that there is a small tolerance boolit to boolit. Using the same example, I notice my 45 auto's are running 223-227 gr. I can live with that in a pistol, and a rifle. 245 gr would alter the loading data somewhat. I like the first round I loaded to match the 8500 round as close as possible. I can shoot some of the 38 special loads my father loaded with 5 gr of Unique under a 158 gr. Lyman semi wad cutter in the 1960's and have them print in exactly the same place rounds I loaded in the 80"s. I'd like to continue that with my grandson. Note worthy is that both print 3/4" groups @50 yards out of my Martini single shot rifle with iron sights. I could be casting them to hard, but it matters more to me that I am casting the intended weight as close to what the mold should be. Back to the new .357 mold. A gas check might not be necessary with all hardnesses of lead as cast. But if needed, would be better to have a part of the mold and be able to use it than need to use it and not have it a feature of the mold. At 62 years old still have much to learn about boolit casting. Grandfather gave me a good start around 10. Never had input from anyone other than grandfather and father on the finer points of mixing and casting. Been winging it for the last 50 years or so. Any ideas always welcome.

[cwheel]

Bill, didn't answer one of your questions. In molds I have with gas checks, they always group tighter than when fired without. Also leading in .357 semi wad cutters is there without, and gone with the GC. Not a fair test because I'm not compairing to a plain base with the same loads. Also, I cast 265 gr 38-55 with gas checks. The 38-55 shows the difference the most when speeds pass 1500 fps. ( normal load is 1500 fps ) heavy leading in the barrel and key-hole shots without the GC. Still not a fair compairason because shots are with and without a GC from the same mold. What is the real answer ?? Don't know. Over the years I can see a pattern developing here though. On a retirees budget, I don't want to end up with a pile of molds I can't use. Think the mold pile is now well over 16.
Chris

[MtGun44]

"even if the lead was hard enough to shoot without leading the barrel"

Hardness has very little to do with leading the barrel. It sounds like you have developed
a reasonable method to get a consistent alloy, but you do need to get past the old wive's tale
that you need 'a hard enough alloy to prevent leading'. This is often repeated as wisdom,
but is not correct. You don't prevent leading by using a harder alloy.

Fit, design and lube are what prevent leading, with hardness being at best 4 or 5th place.
Hardness can play a role for some barrels with shallow rifling in the accuracy situation, but
rarely is a major player in leading. The biggest cause for leading is usually undersized and
too hard, followed by poor lube or poor boolit design.

Bill

[MikeS]

Chris:

Why are you so hung up on making the boolit weight match what the mould maker says it should weigh? It's only a suggested weight, when cast with the specific alloy the mould maker uses to spec their moulds. For example, Lyman uses (or at least used to use) their Lyman #2 alloy when determining the weight of boolit from their moulds. Lyman #2 is 90% lead, 5% tin, and 5% antimony. RCBS uses several different alloys to spec their moulds depending on what it's intended use is (the use one alloy for their 'regular' moulds, another for their 'cowboy' moulds, etc. SAECO moulds uses a commercial alloy called Taracorp Magnum Alloy (I think that's what it's called, I'm doing this from memory) which I believe is 92% lead, 2% tin, and 6% antimony, so if you're mixing your alloy so the boolit weight matches the weight the mould maker says it should weigh, you'll actually have several different alloys depending on who makes your mould. If you have a standard alloy that YOU use (for example 90% lead, 10% babbit) it makes no difference what the mould makers say the boolit should weigh, only what they weigh when using your alloy.

I've standardized on using Lyman #2 alloy for all my casting (other than when casting for muzzle loaders, then I use pure lead), and rarely does the weight the mould is 'supposed' make boolits at, and what my boolits weigh are the same.

Another thing, I don't recall seeing what size you're sizing your boolits to. When shooting a 357 Magnum, if you're sizing the boolits to .357 then you stand a good chance of leading unless you use a fairly hard alloy. It's normally better to size the boolits .001 to .002 larger than the bore diameter of your gun (or in a revolver sizing larger than the cylinder throats). If you have a properly fitting boolit for YOUR gun, then there's no reason to make the alloy very hard. As I'm sure your know by now, no 2 guns are the same, so a boolit that fits YOUR gun perfectly might not fit perfectly in mine!

So I would say the first thing your should do is decide on an alloy you want to use, and standardize with that, so that a boolit cast from a Lyman mould will be the same hardness as one cast from an RCBS mould. Then slug the barrels and/or cylinder throats of your guns to determine what size they should sized to.

I mean no disrespect to anyone in your family, but it sounds like you're using a method of mixing up your lead that's well over 100 years old, and a LOT of advancements in boolit casting have happened in that time, so it would be silly to continue doing it that way just because that's the way it's always been done. 100 years ago cars had spark advance and mixture adjustments done from within the passenger compartment, now they're done for you automatically by the car itself, when you buy a car, do you specify that it should have a mixture adjustment screw on the dashboard, or that spark advance be on the steering column? So why do your bullet casting using 100 year old (or older) methods either? Just something to think about.