50-90 BPCR Question on Post Sizing

[zardoz]

Alright, I am a complete noobie at BPCR. I've reloaded plenty of pistol and rifle cartridges on modern smokeless designs, but this is a new area I'm delving into. I'm trying to make some BP cartridges for my brand new 50-90 Sharps Pedersoli. The "Big Fifty" as they call it.

So, I ordered a raft of books by Paul Matthews and Mike Venturino, and read them before I started.

Using brand new Starline brass, and the recipe is (so far) pre-size using the Lyman tool. I removed the de-capping pin from the die, as I did not need it with new brass. Then I primed using the auto-prime rig on my Lee classic turret.

Boolits are the Lee 450 grain, and I sized to .512 using an Lyman sizing die, and lubed with SPG in an RCBS Lube-a-matic. I cast them from 20-1 Lead-tin. Boolits miked at .5120 to .5122.

Then using the Lyman M die, I just barely expanded the case to accept the base of the boolit. I had to try this several times to get it just right.

Put in a newsprint wad on top of the primer, and loaded with 100 grains Goex FFG. Put in a tablet backing card wad, and then a wax paper wad. Compressed the powder down to where it was about .5 inch below the case mouth. Then a 1/8" grease cookie made from 50/50 beeswax and vaseline, and another wax paper wad.

Then seated the bullets to touching the top wad. An oh-so-slight crimp at this point on the case mouth just enough to straighten out the M die flare.

The cartridge won't chamber, and stops about 1/2" from seating. I'm not going to force it on my new prize.

So then I put the cartridge back in the sizing die (no pin in it), and resize. Now it chambers perfectly.

Everything looks OK, but before I put this thing in, and pull that trigger for the first time, I would like a little advice or recommendations on what is going on here. Have I adjusted my dies right? It is as if the boolit is expanding out the top portion of the case, and when I resize it, that squeezes it down just a tiny bit.

I've only made two of these so far, but don't want to go further unless I get a warm and fuzzy that all is copacetic.

Hopefully someone has an idea.

[firefly1957]

Have you slugged your bore? Just because it is a fifty does not mean it is .512!
I do not use news print over primer flash hole and have found FG powder works better also I drop powder with a 36" 1/2" copper tube it settles better in the case then place card wad on powder and use about 40 lbs of pressure to seat it with a 1/2 " dowel .
Something else I have discovered is a rifle primer is not needed to light black powder a large pistol primer works fine for me and gives tighter groups.

When you resized that loaded case you swaged the bullet smaller also!

I am shooting a 50-3 1/4 in a Sharps Shilo with 34" barrel.

[kodiak1]

How much did you actually compress the powder?
You may have bulged the case.

Ken.

[zardoz]

OK, I used a 3/4 size egg sinker to slug the barrel. BTW, a 50 cal fiberglass ramrod from my Hawken field kit, with a 6" piece of 7/16" wood dowel, wrapped tightly with fiberglass tape, and capped with a 45ACP case worked perfectly. My barrel is 34" as well, and the ramrod didn't quite make the end.

Grooves (high spots) on slug measure 0.5120" to 0.5124". Lands (low spots on slug) measure 0.5022" to 0.5024".

I am thinking the brass case swelled just behind the flare. I tried a dummy case in the same manner, no powder, and it did not chamber either. Stopped about 1/2" from chambering, so I don't think the powder compression was the culprit.

I am wondering if I have my M die set right. When I set it up per instructions, it buckled and ruined a case. So, the next time, I pulled the expander plug out, and put in a case and ran to the top. Then I screwed the M die body down until it made contact, and stopped. Then, I put in the expander plug, and worked it down bit by bit until I got the bit of flare needed to barely start the boolit.

[firefly1957]

It has been so long since I used new brass I forgot what caused to of my b.E.L.L. brass to buckle ? I did not put anything in notes either?

Your procedure sounds Right Does case chamber freely before you expand case mouth?

[zardoz]

I just tried that, and the brass does chamber. A tiny bit snug at the end, but that I figure is due to the flare. It does chamber though.

[bigted]

the procedure i use for new cases is this;

i adjust my size die to touch the shell holder and full length re-size.

i remove the expander plug and adjust the expander die the same...just touching the shell holder,,,then re-install the expander plug till i get the flair i desire.

i then powder and wad the case and use another expander die with a compression plug installed instead of the expander/flair plug and adjusted the same as my shell expander...adjusting the compression plug till i get the measured amount of compression i desire for the boolit i plan to use.

then i install the boolit and seat on the wad firmly but not so much as to further compress the powder column.

i then remove the flair ...[ for hunting loads i completely remove the flair and litely crimp]... for target loads i just remove enough of the flair to chamber easy...no crimp.

if this doesnt work then i would chamber cast your rifle and find out what the chamber dimension is and load acordingly unless there is a mistake in the reaming of your chamber...then id either send it back for repair or find a reputable smith to try to repair the possibly miss-reamed chamber area.

good luck and know that after you yank the trigger on your first smoke-bomb...your gonna be hooked and the game just changed for you...welcome to the addiction and watch yer wallet!!!

[montana_charlie]

Does case chamber freely before you expand case mouth?

I just tried that, and the brass does chamber. A tiny bit snug at the end, but that I figure is due to the flare. It does chamber though.

Before you expand the case mouth (as firefly asked) there should be no flare.

Run a case through the full length resizing die, then try to chamber it.

Then expand the mouth and try to chamber it.

Then seat a bullet (which you will pull later) and try to chamber it.

Then resize the case with the bullet seated and chamber it.

At each of these stages, take measurements of the outside diameter of the case neck behind the point (at the edge of the mouth) that gets flared.

The numbers (when you finish) should point you in a useful direction.

CM

[zardoz]

OK, behind the flare on sized case is 0.525". After boolit is in, measures 0.531".

I size and behind the flare goes back to 0.525". Then I pull a boolit from the sized case, and now it is down to 0.503" from original 0.512"

I went ahead and test fired one of the cartridges that was resized at a 15 yard target, and looks like it keyholed a bit. After firing, the case ejected with no problems.

Is my chamber way too tight? I've done a Google search, and can't seem to find a chamber dimensions print for the 50-90.

Oh, one other thing. Recoil not nearly as bad as some had made it out to be. Not like 525 grain solid slugs at 1500 ft/s, or even 405 grain 45-70 at 1800 ft/s. Those out of much lighter guns, than the Sharps (which tilts scale at 11.5 lbs).

[zardoz]

Problem is solved now.

After the first shot, I cleaned the barrel with BP patches soaked in TC cleaner.

On a whim, I took a 20 gauge shotgun bronze brush, and gave the chamber only a vigorous scrubbing with lots of TC cleaner.

Well, now a cartridge chambers perfectly WITHOUT having to resize it. I checked a cartridge dimension sheet, and should have been able to chamber what I was getting there, as the mouth end was dimensioned at 0.535.

There must have been some sort of protective coating in that chamber that just did not wipe out with patches. My first cleaning before firing was just soft flannel patches, with a polymer jag to get out oils. At any rate, whatever it was, just the bronze bristle brush seems to have solved the problem.

Gads, I was hoping this was not a serious gunsmith type of situation. I was already googling chamber reamers and what not.

Edit: Just tried one the cartridges that chambered with no resizing, and this time nice round hole. No keyhole. Onwards and upwards.

[bigted]

cool...always neat to deescover a simple fix fur stuff. have fun with yur 50 and pictures man .......pictures !!! we all like lookin at pitchures !! both gun-n-targets.

[zardoz]

OK, first visit to the range(private shooting club, of which I R a member) with the Sharps Big Fifty. Had the place all to myself once again, as Sunday afternoons usually end up being my shooting time.

Set up the big target at 50 yards, and also put in the soule tang sight this morning. I had also made about 6 more cartridges this morning in the early hours, feeling a tiny bit more confident about what I was doing. All of them chambered AOK, just dropping in. So far so good.

Packed up the Savage .308, with newly attached Osprey 10X-40X 50mm scope. That thing is almost a spotting scope on its own.

Set-up, and had no idea of where to put the peep on the tang, so I ran it clear to the zero bottom. First two shots WAY high. I had a bit more and bottomed out the tang sight. Two more shots, and so-so. Very nice round holes at 50 yards, so I think I got that worked out.

I mixed up some NAPA/Murphys Oil Soap/water "Moose Milk" in a liter jug, and was swabbing one wet patch, and one dry patch between shots.

At any rate, final two shots were right on the money. I had to aim at the very bottom edge of the target circle, to get bullseye. Really, I am quite amazed at that vernier Soule tang sight. I had my doubts that my 55 year old eyes, with bad astigmatism would be able to use this to any good degree. I was wrong. The effect of the peep aperture was quite a help at seeing both the front sight and target both in focus. 19th century tech. Those guys really had it going on there.

Anyway, to see my shots, I used the Osprey scope on the Savage 308, because there was almost no way I could see the holes clearly with no telescopic optics.

Been looking at those Hadley adjustable peep aperture eye cups for Pedersoli (metric threads) from Track of the Wolf. This has me quite intrigued.

Another thing that was surprising, was the sensitiviity after setting the trigger. That trigger after set, is just touch it, and BOOM!! Another amazing 19th century technology.

Anyway, 6 shots, and I was done with that gun for the day. Need to absorb, study, and ruminate over a few things I learned today. New boolits, a bit different technique, and some ballistics figuring. Next visit to the range, out to 100 yards. Today was Sharps 101 for me.

Just love this thing already. My finest, best gun in the collection. Also been thinking about building a custom gun case for it out of wood, with an engraved brass plaque on it. Seems like all the gun cases are too short to fit the thing I've looked at.

Ended the day at the range, adjusting the new Osprey scope at 100 yards. I can read the print on the target easily at 100 yards with that thing. Incredible deal on them. Got mine from Sportmans Guide.

BigTed, I will try to get some pictures later on. Now, I have to put away, organize, and clean up all my various bits and pieces.

[firefly1957]

Great news glad you have your gun working well Is it able to shoot paper patched slugs or is the chamber set up for lubed bullets?

Who makes the Osprey scope? A few years ago on a whim I bought a NC star 10-40X50mm scope with the lighted tactical reticle it has the sharpest view at 10X but as power goes up it gets a bit hazy because of internal reflections. Overall I think it was a great buy @ $104 with mounts.

[RMulhern]

Groan!

[Gunlaker]

Groan!

Rick the funny thing is that, based on my experience, bore diameter bullets are pretty tolerant of almost any chamber type. Seems that's a common opinion amongst those who've spent much time at it.

When I first started messing with them I was quite concerned that my grease groove chambers wouldn't like them. After a few tips from you, Don, CM, Kenny and the rest, I've found it's often easier to get a rifle shooting well with PP bullets than greasers.

Chris.

[zardoz]

I'm going to try the Cast Boolits host this time for pictures.

Here is the Pedersoli Sharps Big Fifty



Here is a close up of the lock and Soule tang sight.



My very first Sharps target at 50 yards. Shots 1 and 2 clear off the map. Shots 3 and 4 were dialing things in a bit. Shots 5 and 6 I was starting to get the hang of it.



Just for comparison, one of my 50-90 cartridges, alongside a 45-70.

[RMulhern]

That light-*** dude is gonna wake you up!

[zardoz]

Oh yea, off topic a bit, here is the Savage with the Osprey for Firefly.

Box for the scope just says "Osprey Manufacturing, LLC".

One of clearest scopes I've seen all the way from 10X to 40X.

[Gunlaker]

Sure is fun isn't it

How is the recoil? My first BP shooting was done with a 34" barreled .50-140. The only really comfortable way to shoot it was sitting with cross sticks. It's sitting at the gunsmiths right now, waiting to get fitted with a .45 cal Badger barrel. I'd have kept the .50 if it was in an authentic chambering, i.e. .50-90.

Chris.

[Lead pot]

zardoz.

I would loose that crimp you have on that bullet. Your photo looks like you have a pretty tight roll crimp going into that groove. You will loose all the accuracy that rifle is capable of with a crimp.
One more thing I would check is the rate of twist in that rifle. I dont know what Petersoli uses for a ROT in there 50's but the 450 gr bullet is pretty small for a ROT of more then a 1/32 if your going to shoot farther then 50 yards.
A single shot rifle does not need a crimp.
Those .512 diameter bullets should be more then wide enough to hold tight in a unsized case unless the pedersoli chamber is way to big.