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Thread: Forming 6.5 Jap from 220 Swift

  1. #1
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    Forming 6.5 Jap from 220 Swift

    I have an older sporterized Japanese rifle in 6.5 chambering. I have put off shooting it much, because factory brass is so darned expensive. Recently I acquired a batch of 220 Swift, which is supposed to be one of the cases that will convert to 6.5 Jap. I ran one through the 6.5 RCBS sizer die, with a light coat of STP for lube. That one looked like a beer can that had been crushed. It split the neck, and crushed the body. After thinking about it, I decided that I needed to shorten the cases first, to about the right length. I annealed one with a propane torch, just until I got a color change. Then I ran the case through my Wilson trimmer with the 30-06 case holder, using tape to center the case, due to swift having more taper on the body. I ran the trimmed one through the sizer die, and it was better, but still has crumpled shoulders. In the photo below, a regular swift is on the right, and the reformed case is on the left. Can anybody give me some advice on how to get them to reform pretty? Thanks. Wayne
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  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    I think Graf's now has Priv 6.5 Jap brass in stock.

    John
    Last edited by johnly; 08-17-2011 at 01:59 AM.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

    Reg's Avatar
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    If Graf's or anyone else has it by all means get factory formed brass. Will save many gray hairs.
    If you do have to form it, do some research. RCBS most likely has forming dies and C&H might as well. Forming dies often are the only way to go. The brass must move in stages. At various stages in this forming, yes, neck annealing will be in order. Also, use Imperial sizing wax. STP has its place but for what ever is in Imperial, it flat works.

    Good Luck


  4. #4
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    Still thinking about it

    Thanks, Reg. I guess I like a challenge. I will look into getting the Imperial, though.

    Wayne

  5. #5
    Boolit Master



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    I went the .220 swift route also, but had several failures for each good case. Bear in mind that this USED to be the only way to obtain cases. Commercial PRIVI brass from Grafs is very good and a bargain at the price.

    The other method is easy.....35 Remington. Although not a semi rim like the Jap, they function beautifully. Lube it up and size it in the 6.5 Jap die. That's it, you're done. The neck will be shorter than the standard case but presents no problems at all. Base size is just about perfect with no bulge after firing.

    Still another method is to use .243 Winchester, which makes a beautiful case. HOWEVER, it requires making a ring die and using a hydraulic press to shove the case all the way up to the rim, swaging the base to size, then driving it back out. Then it is run through the 6.5 die. This results in an excellent case but is more work than I want.

    I'd go the 35 Remington route first.
    Last edited by 3006guns; 08-16-2011 at 10:12 PM.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master

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    When I was trying to make 6.5 Japanese out of 308 Winchester I bought a "base swaging die" from a nice fellow that goes by rice1 on many forums. He said to send the brass through an 8mm Mauser die first, then his die then the 6.5 die. It was so much work I only made a few. Bought the Graf's brass. Done.

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    You don't say whether you do or not, but you might want to try sizing in stages (remove the decapping spindle, size the case, install the spindle, size the case again) Also, be careful that when you lube the case you're not lubing where the new shoulder is going to be.

    The other thing to check is that the bottom of your expander button has enough taper to gently open the neck, and GO SLOW!!! (I make 7.65 Argentine out of .30-06, and if you bang away at the press, they crumple. Slowing down increases the success rate...)


    Dan
    Last edited by 220swiftfn; 08-16-2011 at 11:54 PM.

  8. #8
    Boolit Master




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    I've used 220 Swift to make 6.5 JAP as well in the past.

    I cut the case down to 51mm with a dremel blade and then I used a 257 roberts expander and then ran it into my 6.5 Arisaka RCBS forming die.

    After it was formed I used a LEE trimmer to cut the length to the proper 50mm and then fireformed one time with a light load over a jacketed bullet.

    after building 100 of them, I switched to 35 Remington cases.

    Bruce
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  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    If I recall correctly, I believe I made some many years ago using 303 British. I have a little South Bend lathe and turned down a new rim and extractor groove.

  10. #10
    Boolit Master




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    BudRow,

    That was a common conversion for 7.7 Arisaka brass. It leaves the neck 2mm short in the converted case but its a very good means of converting brass to meet the need if you have a lathe.

    It won't help the 6.5 case issue though

    Bruce
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  11. #11
    Boolit Master WRideout's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 220swiftfn View Post
    You don't say whether you do or not, but you might want to try sizing in stages (remove the decapping spindle, size the case, install the spindle, size the case again) Also, be careful that when you lube the case you're not lubing where the new shoulder is going to be.

    The other thing to check is that the bottom of your expander button has enough taper to gently open the neck, and GO SLOW!!! (I make 7.65 Argentine out of .30-06, and if you bang away at the press, they crumple. Slowing down increases the success rate...)


    Dan
    Thanks for the tip. All I have ever done is roll the cases on a lube pad. Sounds like I need to apply with fingers. I used to make 7.65 also, so I thought this would be easy.

    Wayne

  12. #12
    Boolit Master madsenshooter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bruce drake View Post
    BudRow,

    That was a common conversion for 7.7 Arisaka brass. It leaves the neck 2mm short in the converted case but its a very good means of converting brass to meet the need if you have a lathe.

    It won't help the 6.5 case issue though

    Bruce
    No Bruce. BudRow is correct, one can make 6.5 Arisaka from 303 British or 30/40 Krag. In fact, I once wrote Norma about their woefully undersized 6.5 Jap cases. Next thing I knew, they were loading their ammo with cases based on the .303 head size. It appears they had a lot of the undersized stuff to get rid of though. One can still spend a pretty penny for brass that only lasts a couple firings.
    "If people let the government decide what foods they eat and what medicines they take, their bodies will soon be in as sorry a state as are the souls of those who live under tyranny."

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    Boolit Master gew98's Avatar
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    I can recall as a kid 'old georgie decher' a USMC Saipan and okinawa vet when he gave me his 7,7 jap rifle some years after he gave his 6,5 jap rifle he handed me the ammo he used in it for many years..it was all 7,65 argentine surplus in chargers in cardboard packets. He had been shooting that stuff in it since the 1950's without a hiccup.
    No , I did not read that in a manual or stay in a Holiday Inn Express last night.... it's just the facts Ma'am.

    What's the difference between a pig and an Engineer ?
    You can argue with the Pig.

  14. #14
    In Remembrance


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    A friend's dad gave him a 7.7 Jap rifle with some 300 Savage ammo. He had been shooting that for years. When I told him the correct ammo he said that may be why it didn't shoot too good.
    303 Savage may have been a better fit.

  15. #15
    Boolit Master
    Ed in North Texas's Avatar
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    When I bought the PPU (Prvi Partizan) cases from Graf's last week, their website showed "out of stock", but when I went to the actual listing to have them e-Mail when they got more, they were in stock. So if anyone wants some, they are in stock - for how long?

    Ed

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by gew98 View Post
    I can recall as a kid 'old georgie decher' a USMC Saipan and okinawa vet when he gave me his 7,7 jap rifle some years after he gave his 6,5 jap rifle he handed me the ammo he used in it for many years..it was all 7,65 argentine surplus in chargers in cardboard packets. He had been shooting that stuff in it since the 1950's without a hiccup.
    Other than blowing the shoulder forward and removing most of the neck, given otherwise very similar dimensions I don't see this would be a huge issue. Not my recommended practice but am not surprised he had no issue.

    I bought quite a bit of 6.5 off of gunbroker that was formed on .308 and .243 brass. The guy who made it used an RCBS form die. It all chambered fine, but on subsequent resizing the die pushed a ring of brass down the side leaving what looked like a belted magnum. That belt then wouldn't chamber in the guns. I then chucked the cases in a drill and used a rough file to remove the ring and they've done great ever since. However, now that proper brass is available (I have some of that too) there's really no need anymore.

  17. #17
    Boolit Master




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    reawakening this thread to reply to Madsenshooter. You Sir are 100% correct! I must have mixed up my braincases as well as my cartridges on that post above.
    I Cast my Boolits, Therefore I am Happy.
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  18. #18
    Boolit Master
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    guys thank's for the input on the JAP. brass question.this will rely help me a lot.

  19. #19
    Boolit Mold
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    Good to see others efforts in making 6.5x50 brass. I have a Type 38 rifle that I want to shoot but don't have much brass for. I have a couple of old boxes of Norma stuff that is splitting and probably be tossed away after another firing. I also wanted to address the issue of the 6.5 chambers being oversized for factory made brass. The Norma brass comes out with a significant bulge near the base. Already having the dies I am mentioning, I did the following using .308Win brass. First, pushed it into a Lee .457 bullet sizer up till the rim, knocked the case out with a Lee steel .30 rod that comes in a Lee Handloading kit. Then into a Lee .454 bullet sizer up to the rim, knock it out. Then full length sized it in a 6.5x55 die just to get the 6.5 neck started. Then full length sized through the 6.5x50 die which I opened the bottom portion to a gradual .458 using sandpaper wrapped around a cartridge case on a lathe (guess and golly method). Trimmed the brass to length and full length sized again. I ran the brass through the rifle and it fits and ejects nicely. I'll still need to anneal the brass before reloading them. Will try them out the next time I go to the shooting range. Oh, and I did lube the cases before and at each sizing operation. In this time of what seems to be panic buying, the 6.5x50 brass is not available. Making them is my only option as I have plenty of fired .308 brass.
    Edit: 3/9/2021
    Oh boy, I ran into some serious problems making a second batch of these 6.5 out of .308s. Rims of the .308 broke off in the shellholder while extracting the case from the 6.5x50 sizer die. Happened twice. I had a remedy, drilled and tapped the primer hole for a 1/4" bolt, screwed the die into the Rockchucker press from below, then used a crowbar to yank the bolt and shell out of the die. I stopped making more till I assess this situation. The brass will need to be passed through another smaller Lee bullet sizing die, maybe a .452 or even .450 to spare the grief of stuck cases. Yeah the brass will spring out a little bigger than the diameter of these sizers. Well, to all who try this, do it at your own risks.
    Edit: 3/9/2021 later in the evening.
    During the sizing in the 6.5x50 die, getting the last 1/8" of the shell in was very difficult, and when completely in, the pull out was when the rims got damaged. My remedy was to chuck the cases into my lathe and turn the 1/8" section in front of the rim down to .460-.464(guess and golly using a file), before sizing in the 6.5x50 die. Remember, my die has been altered to be .458 in the rear part. The sizing operation went easy after this. And with my 6.5 cases between .464 and .460 at the area near the rim, they feed into my rifles chamber very well, bolt closes with very little resistance and opens and extracts with no problem.
    Edit 4/15/2021: Below is a video I made,
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R1wEJj3AqHE
    Last edited by seac; 04-15-2021 at 10:11 PM. Reason: additional information.

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