Idaho says no to inlines

[waksupi]

http://www.spokesmanreview.com/break...ry.asp?ID=8461

[MT Gianni]

I don't see the problem, they can still use the in-lines in the regular season if they want to use them. The guns aren't useless they just don't fit in Idaho's idea of a primitive season. I know that there have been talks about compound bows at over 60% let off being outlawed for archery season here in MT. It isn't that they are killing too many animals it is the advantage, percieved or real, over the primitave weapons range and trajectory. I'm putting the asbestos suit on now so flame away. Gianni.

[RugerFan]

I don't see the problem, they can still use the in-lines in the regular season if they want to use them.
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Yup exactly. I use my inline ML during the regular rifle season in shotgun areas. I think Idaho made the right move.

[7br]

Kansas does not allow optical sights during regular season. It cuts my effective range to under 100yards even with an inline. I do use it to hunt in muzzleloader/shotgun only areas. My beef with them is the same as with the ultra wizzen kapower rifles. People seem to think just because the rifle can heave a hunk of lead out that far, they can shoot that far. Heck, the fartherest I have shot a deer has been about 85 yards. I would hate to start looking for a blood trail 400 yards from where I shot from.

[Guido4198]

As someone who has hunted w/ bow, handgun, modern rifle, and traditional ( iron sighted hawken) muzzleloader....I've given these questions a good bit of thought. Some creative folks saw a loophole in muzzleloader season regulations and exploited it. That's been their privilege to do as the regs. were originally written. It is not uncommon for each state's wildlife management agency to adjust and modify hunting regs. as conditions in their states change. As I see it...the decisions that have been made in several states to restrict the weapon choices during a SPECIAL season are the perogative of those agencies. They write the rules...the rules change from year to year. Hunters have to adjust accordingly. To my knowledge...no agency has banned the use of "modern muzzleloaders"...scopes, etc....they have merely determined that they do not qualify for use in a SPECIAL season. No Big Deal.

[omgb]

I am in with the group that believes that modern in-line rifles are NOT in keeping with the spirit of primitive hunting. I began using a ML back in 1972. All we had were round balls or minies and open buckhorn sights. You could choose either flint or cap but either way, you had a 100 yard gun and you had to know how to use it in all types of weather.

In-line guns are similar to these MLs the way in which a Porche Carrera is similar to a Model T. They're both cars and have 4 wheels and an engine but the similarity stops there.

In every sport, guys look for an edge over human limitations. Hunting is no different. Use your in-line but do so in the regular hunting season. Special early hunts should be for honestly primitive weapons only. Remember, it's about the tradition, not the bag. It's tradition, not sport. It's tradition, not killing. The words we use in earshot of the non-hunting public are pretty danged important to the long-term survival of the hunting way of life. If we are too focused on bag rather than experience, we will loose this tradition of ours as sure as my name is R J Talley

[omgb]

The issue here is the additional advantage being granted ML shooters based on an expected mechanical disadvantage that does not really exist in In-Line MLs.

Idaho F&G observations about typical present day hunters seem to agree with what the department of Fish and Game here in the PRK are finding. I teach Hunter Safety for the state and have an inside track to what's being researched. The In-Line rifle controversy exploded when 200yard scoped shots became routine. Suddenly, the handicap that everyone thought ML shooters labored under was gone. Most of us who voted in the early seasons did so with the image of some buck-skinned Jeremiah Johnson wanna be shuffling through the woods armed with a cap-lock that depending on the weather, just might go bang when the trigger is pulled. We had visions of stalkers getting within 50 yards of game and "Daniel Booning" them with a round ball shot to the base of the skull. We felt that putting these guys out with the big boys and the modern "Vunderguns" would be like inviting the kindergärtners out to play in your high school football game, totally mismatched. So, to give them a fair chance at success and to protect these guys from clowns who shoot at sounds or at moving bushes, we created the early ML season.

Well, fast foreword to the present and arm our present day Nimrod with a modern IL ML and things are quite different. The gun almost always goes boom on command, weather is hardly an issue any more, scopes and HV loads in conjunction with sabots make 200 yard chest cavity kills no more difficult than it is with a modern rifle. To preserve the idea of Fair Chase and to keep things equal between hunters, a lot of us are for regulating ILs out of the special seasons.
This whole topic gets pretty emotional. What is important not to lose sight of here is that no serious shooter is saying or implying that there is something unsportsman-like about in-lines. Quite the contrary. What is in question is whether or not an individual armed with such a firearm is sufficiently handicapped as to warrant a special season for its use. Clearly, given the state of development in-lines have presently achieved, there is no handicap other than that experienced by any other single-shot shooter. Honestly, is an in-line shooter equipped any less than a man armed with a Trapdoor or a Highwall in 45-70? Not really. True, a second shot takes a tad more time but honestly, if a deer is going to sit still while you reload a trapdoor, he's not moving just because you've got an in-line. I'm not saying they reload equally fast but the difference in nil under actual field conditions.

So what it comes down to is just plain fair chase sportsmanship. I would love to see in-lines in the field during regular season. I hold no grudge against them or their owners nor do I think they are second-rate firearms. But, I don't believe they deserve to be classed as MLs if the intent of the game commission is to classify MLs as "primitive" weapons deserving of a special season out of regard for their performance limitations. Discussing the in-line owner's character is foolishly divisive and unproductive. No one here has done that but judging by the tone of some of the posts, there is no shortage of in-line users who have been the target of such diatribes elsewhere.

The comparison was made between lever guns and in-lines and I think it's a fair comparison. The lever gun gives you a rapid second shot but realistically, the rounds they are most frequently chambered for are similar in performance to those used by an in-line. There are exceptions to be sure. Winchesters in 303, 3006, 30-40 are far from anything most of us would call handicapped or short=range brush calibers. But for the most part, 38-55, 45-70, 35 Rem, 303 Savage are all in league with a 45 cal saboted in-line load pushed by 120 grains of T7 or Pyrodex.

[skullmount]

In-line guns are similar to these MLs the way in which a Porche Carrera is similar to a Model T. They're both cars and have 4 wheels and an engine but the similarity stops there.

Use your in-line but do so in the regular hunting season. Special early hunts should be for honestly primitive weapons only.

IMO, .....the engine of a Porche might be put into a Model T.....I think most would agree that the Model T would not be able to use the "horsepower"



.....please define "honestly primitive weapons"



I am not from Idaho, but from what I read, the wording said nothing about "in-line" The words I recall was pivoting hammer.

[skullmount]

[SIZE=2][COLOR=#191970]

Well, fast foreword to the present and arm our present day Nimrod with a modern IL ML and things are quite different.

The gun almost always goes boom on command, weather is hardly an issue any more,

scopes and HV loads in conjunction with sabots

....... are all in league with a 45 cal saboted in-line load pushed by 120 grains of T7 or Pyrodex.

I hunt with a "modern Nimrod" who, with an "in-line" had a "hang-fire".......I believe because of old powder, moisture etc.

Most ML's will go "boom" if the hunter/shooter knows their gun !


I thought that scopes and sabots were not allowed in the first place ?
(minimum projectile size)

[omgb]

An honestly primitive firearm, as the term was used when the special seasons were being considered back in the 60s and early 70s, would be a round ball or Minne shooting caplock or flintlock. Some states required that they be flinters, most required a ball of 45 cal or greater. Some even required that they be smoothbore. The concept was that a 19th century design should be able to be used by men and women wishing to recreate, as much as possible, a 19th century hunting experience.

Further, it was believed that stealth was going to be a key part of this experience and that the shooting would be at very close range, say 75 yards or less. I'm not making this stuff up. I read, heard, and participated in debates where these concepts were batted about. In CA the issue was whether or not hunter orange needed to be worn. If, like a bow hunter, non-orange clothing was to be worn, a separate season might be in order to help insure safety. Any way, the whole thing changed as in-lines became more powerful, reliable and more like bolt guns using cartridges.

The recreation of tradition aspect tends to wane as a legitimate argument when in-lines come into play. Whether this was ever a legitimate reason for special seasons or not is really moot. Only the supposed disadvantage shouldered by the ML hunter really needs to be considered. If it exists, and if ML hunting requires special close-range techniques then perhaps a special season is needed. If those disadvantages are not significant or if special hunting techniques are not required, then the argument against special seasons gains strength.

I think there is sufficient evidence to support the idea that in-line shooters are not significantly handicapped as to warrant a special season. That's my opinion, YMMV. I guess it's up to each of us to make our opinions and rational known to our local DF&Gs.

[skullmount]

An honestly primitive .......................................... The concept was that a 19th century design should be able to be used by men and women wishing to recreate, as much as possible, a 19th century hunting experience.



Any way, the whole thing changed as in-lines became more powerful, reliable and more like bolt guns using cartridges.

Thank You ! Pauley patented the in-line in the 1800's ....are they ok now ?


How have in-lines become more powerful, in a situation where black and similar propellants are used with balls or full bore bullets ?

[waksupi]

Have you ever seen a Pauley inline design? Quite a bit different than the current crop.

[omgb]

Once again, it seems to be deteriorating into an emotional discussion. Of course I know when the first in-lines were patented but that is beside the point. Today's in-lines are not in keeping with what the DF&Gs had in mind 30 years ago. I know, I was there. I participated in the discussion at that time. I wrote letters and essays supporting the idea of special BP seasons.

There is little new under the sun in firearms. Rifle or shotgun primers, thumb hole stocks, scope sights all existed in the 19th century but not in the refined configurations and combinations seen today. When you factor in pelletized powders and ballistic tipped saboted slugs it's far from primitive.

I'm not going to change any body's mind nor do I feel compelled to. The historical facts are however, that once upon a time 30 or so years ago, special BP seasons were conceived for the express purpose of assisting ML shooters because it was believed they were at a mechanical disadvantage. Whether the imagined disadvantages of ML guns aren't now and perhaps never were, real disadvantages worthy of a special season is the question.

Clearly you think they need a special season. I no longer think they do. What more is there to discuss?

When they banned lead shot from waterfowl I was pissed. I was using a Parker and a beautiful Mdl 12 I inherited from my grandfather. Suddenly, I couldn't use them any more. Nor could I cheaply load shells either. Shoot, it was what, 4 years before safe steel components became available. I was ticked. It cost me several hundred dollars to get back into the duck shooting game and my two favorite guns became wall hangers. Not fair at all but, it was good for the sport and I learned to suck it up. The Calif DF&G banned rimfire and center fire guns from rabbit shooting. There went my beautiful M92 in 25-20. Once again, I adapted and moved on. And, once again, it was for the good of the sport. The point is, this ban in Idaho is similar. It's for the betterment of the sport as a whole and that's why I support it. Promoting fair chase is the only way we are going to be able to defend this tradition from the anti-gunners. i believe this is just such a situation and that's why I support Idaho's decision.

[skullmount]

Have you ever seen a Pauley inline design? Quite a bit different than the current crop.

waksupi,

I have not held a Pauley in my hands...but I have seen many pictures of Pauleys and sketches of Pauley in-line actions evey time this topic comes up......just surf a bit and its going on a few of the other boards too.....I guess its too cold for the guys to get out and shoot their guns...................

I will agree that it is different and was improved in very short order, before 1835 if memory serves me right....the coil spring and cylindrical striker are still there.....

[KCSO]

Hooray for Idaho!

[skullmount]

Once again, it seems to be deteriorating into an emotional discussion. Of course I know when the first in-lines were patented but that is beside the point. *

There is little new under the sun in firearms. Rifle or shotgun primers, thumb hole stocks, scope sights all existed in the 19th century but not in the refined configurations and combinations seen today. When you factor in pelletized powders and ballistic tipped saboted slugs it's far from primitive. #


Clearly you think they need a special season. I no longer think they do. What more is there to discuss? %

Promoting fair chase is the only way we are going to be able to defend this tradition from the anti-gunners. i believe this is just such a situation and that's why I support Idaho's decision.&

*You stated in a previous post "The concept was that a 19th century design should be able to be used by men and women wishing to recreate, as much as possible, a 19th century hunting experience. "

What is the point ?

# I thought this discussion was about Idaho...no scopes.....full bore bullets...loose powder.....

% Describe "they".

& What does "fair chase" have to do with this discussion ?

*I think you missed this question from my previous post*
How have in-lines become more powerful, in a situation where black and similar propellants are used with balls or full bore bullets ?

[Mr Peabody]

I don't think they went far enough.
No 4 wheelers in the muzzle loader hunt.
No snowmobiles in the muzzle loader hunt.
Choose your weapon for the entire season.
Set up the most pressured units as primitive weapons only.
Lets get after the Hunt!

[skullmount]

I don't think they went far enough.
No 4 wheelers in the muzzle loader hunt.
No snowmobiles in the muzzle loader hunt.
Choose your weapon for the entire season.
Set up the most pressured units as primitive weapons only.
Lets get after the Hunt!

We have some riders that have turned me against any machines in the woods during season other than those used by the handicaped!

[waksupi]

Many years ago, state senator Ethel Harding approached our ML group, to write the state ML laws for Montana. We did, and they still stipulate, that patched round ball is the only legal projectile in a muzzleloading only area. The laws of Idaho were put forth at around the same time, as the western states were having more and more demand for primitive hunting areas.
Thirty years ago, the inline was an unknown entity in the world of muzzleloaders, who were the ones wanting clarification on what could be used. Inlines, with sabots, can be used in regular season, but still restricted away from ML only areas.
I don't mind people shooting them, but they should do a reality check if they believe they are anything like what was intended. The are a product of people, out to make a quick buck off of gullible shooters. It seems to have worked out well for them.
This isn't the only aspect of hunting sports that has been effected by technology. There are now areas for traditional archery equipment only, and I expect to see an increase in these.

[Underclocked]

Pretty late with this bit of info - it's already been trolled in a major way across the internet by the usual suspects.

The real acid test will be the "what's in your heart" diagnostic test currently being perfected by that great Italian traditional firm of Davide Pedersoli. Only those that hunt believing themselves to be set apart in time from the universe generally and have the proper "romantic attitude" will be allowed to use a muzzleloader of any sort.

It's a tricky test.