Felix lube issue

[inthebeech]

I reheated some previously made lube (which works great) and it developed many smallish ribbon-like pieces throughout the mixture which no amount of agitation could disolve. So I strained the hot liquid to keep them out of my lube mold and now, whatever they are, they are not part of the hardened lube.

After this, before I poured a second lube stick, I experimented a bit with higher temperatures to see if I could dissolve those pieces. I did but the lube seemed to be near burning. It also turned a darker color red (I use maker's mark sealing wax for color and shine), but I poured a stick anyway.

So, my questions are;

What were those pieses of ribbon? Were they important? Do I have a usable stick from the first pour, given that they were strained out?

What did I do chemically in the second pour? Is this a usable stick.

Thanks,
Ed

[Moonie]

I use FWFL with carnuba as a pan lube so I have remelted my batch a fairly large number of times, I've not seen this behavior. Hopefully others can help.

[geargnasher]

I've never seen it either. Sounds like some sort of precipitate, but I can't imagine what. How about pictures?

It also sounds like you scorched the bejeezus out of the lanolin by trying to get the strings to melt, lanolin can't take much more than about 175 degrees, and that's AFTER it's been dissolved in the mix, it scorches at about 150 by itself. The lube is probably still quite usable, but may not be as good for 2500 fps rifle rounds anymore!

Gear

[stubshaft]

I've made and used pounds of the stuff and have not had any "ribbons" form in it. Possibly some type of contamination?

Pics would help.

[leftiye]

Try it anyhoo, you might like it - still. I am using a batch (not felix) that I thought I had burned, werks fine!

[inthebeech]

Here's the photos you asked for. This is a completely fresh batch with the same symptoms. The ribbons (at left) would not dissolve with any amount of agitatin and everything was very clean (oils, soap, heating container, stirrer...). Again I just strained it (on right) before pouring in to the lube stick moulds and hopefuly whatever they are, they aren't compromising the great lube qualities of this recipe. When I put one of these ribon pieces between my fingers, it was about the consistency of an egg noodle for the short time that it was hot. Then it quickly cooled and crumbled as would a cooling piece of candle wax.

Thanks for your input and ideas.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

It looks like egg drop soup ???
Jon

[geargnasher]

I'm understanding that the ribbons were not present when the lube was made initially, but upon reheating they formed when the mixture melted? The only thing I can think of is that the stearates are precipitating out for some reason. The appearance and description of how the cooled pieces felt, especially the crumbling part when cool, sounds just like ribbons of Ivory soap. How did you process the soap initially? Did you shave it into strips with a knife, grate it, or what? Sometimes the shavings will turn clear in the mix and you won't notice them much, but they could absorb moisture over time and cloud, forming what you have there when reheated. I used to strain the lumps out with a cloth like you did, but have since started using stearic acid and have zero lumps as it melts in almost instantly and dissolves completely in the mix.

Gear

[Hip's Ax]

I sent a PM to Felix. This is too interesting to not ask his opinion.

[randyrat]

I'm understanding that the ribbons were not present when the lube was made initially, but upon reheating they formed when the mixture melted? The only thing I can think of is that the stearates are precipitating out for some reason. The appearance and description of how the cooled pieces felt, especially the crumbling part when cool, sounds just like ribbons of Ivory soap. How did you process the soap initially? Did you shave it into strips with a knife, grate it, or what? Sometimes the shavings will turn clear in the mix and you won't notice them much, but they could absorb moisture over time and cloud, forming what you have there when reheated. I used to strain the lumps out with a cloth like you did, but have since started using stearic acid and have zero lumps as it melts in almost instantly and dissolves completely in the mix.

Gear

Bingo........ I think Gear hit it on the head. When you use soap you have to shave or grate it real fine. It takes some work to melt it into your mix. I also use stearic acid now. It melts easy and mixes well.

[felix]

Yeah, I am responding to Hip's PM, and I am sorry to say that I like EggDrop soup at the expense of looking at a lube gone amok. I have no earthly idea of what this contaminate is, and I have thought about it for some time without letting anyone know. However, I have used magnesium stearate in order to roundup the alox component within NRA lubes which precipitates out some kind of thick and black aluminum-magnesium complex. Given centuries within the earth, that Al-Mg combo might generate a ruby or some other striking ring stone, maybe. ... felix

Gear is on the right track. Stearates are to blame, but really it takes two or more components to tangle. ... felix

[geargnasher]

Sort of off-topic, but not really, I'll relate an experience I had with boolit lube that changed my perceptions of it greatly. I made a batch of Starmetal Joe's lube that he swears is the end-all, be-all of HV lubes, and it was as hard as some of the harder micro petroleum waxes, but not brittle, just very, very tough, and had a melting point above 200 degrees. Deciding it was useless for my purposes, I melted and poured the batch into a can and put it under the bench, figured it might help me start some burn piles next rainy season or use it for drawer slide lube. Well, I rediscovered it a year later, and it was the perfect consistency for a nice, firm lube. What happened? Either it self-homogenized, or it absorbed moisture and sofened up. The forumula was half Ivory, half beewax, and a little castor oil. You can imagine how difficult it was to melt initially. I remelted it so see what would happen, raising it to about 220 or so for a while, and it cooled hard as a rock again. Seems the water cooked off.

What's the moral of the story? Most of our "natural" homade lubes aren't stable. Most of the time they get better with age and frequent reheatings, but just because it's oil and wax doesn't make it immune to water, especially if it has lanolin, carnauba wax, and stearates in it. Even beeswax has a natural moisture content. The only reason a boolit lube wouldn't be hygroscopic would be if it had a large portion of calcium soap grease or similar substance in it, which repels water molecules on a valence level.

Something could have gotten in that lube somehow, perhaps even in vapor form, and caused the reaction, but I'm clueless as to what it could be. In order to force solid precipitates to form in a liquid solution, there usually has to be a chemical exchange going on, and I don't know what you could have introduced to the solution that would for a precipitate like that.

Gear

[inthebeech]

To answer a couple of questions;
In adding in the soap, I will say that it never seemed to really incorporate. At first it foamed up (It's soap, isn't it?). But even after continuous stiring, I was still left with what could be described as very fine white granulations in the oil. After about five minutes of being unable to truly dissolve those specs of soap, I went forward and added the wax and continued.

Another question I've implicitly also answered with the above description. This was a new batch and not a reheated batch.
The soap, if it is the culprit, was definately pure Ivory bars. I made sure not to evn get a fragrance version but pure, simple Ivory - and it was grated extreemly fine to begin with.

I am surprised that no one has experienced this. Given the likelyhood that there must be a variety of temperatures and brands of raw materials, cooking utensils and heat sources, that this is a truly unique experience; especially since I used measured quantities and a thermometer and cookware about as clean as it comes (Corning pyrex).
Oh well.
Thanks anyway folks.
I'll shoot it up and see what happens before I move on to another recipe that perhaps I won't bugger up.

[Maven]

itb, When you added the Ivory soap, was it chunks, slivers or was it shavings? I had a similar problem with my first batch of Felix Lube, but after I grated the soap, it incorporated into the mixture much better. Hope this helps!

[fryboy]

part of it could also be how much moisture was left in the soap , or rather in the soap at the time you used it , in part that's what is also helping make the foaming , really dry bars of soap seem to work ( and grate ) the best

[geargnasher]

The foam is water boiling off of the soap. Fresh Ivory bars have a large amount of water in them. Also, the soap contains a lot of glycerine, which doesn't play well with oils, and that gives you the lumps that are hard to dissolve. I used to strain them out, but it probably doesn't matter much if they're left in there.

Leave your bar of soap on top of the water heater or refrigerator for a month, it will grate to a powder with a garlic grater quite easily.

Gear