Sorry!303guy: you never did say what the mushroom diameter was on those bullets,
The top one with the patch still on measures 0.63". I've had some boolits turn completely inside out forming a ¾" cup.
Like these.
Those were a bit heavier at over 210gr. 245gr, I think.
This one was a 162 grainer.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
boolits, boolits and more.
303guy: Thanks for the pictures. Beautiful mushrooms. I was pretty close @ 65thou.
. Now, if I can just duplicate your efforts. I prefer to shoot heavy for caliber at around 16-1800 FPS. also can you describe the accuracy of your patched bullets that retain the patch all the way to the target? Sorry about taking so long to get back at you and offshore44, but had a hard drive failure (old drives and finally catching up to me--need to buy a new 500gb or so) and had to pick another OLD drive to reload with an OS.
good luck to you and especially Offshore44 on the Yugo48-- I am going to try his idea on the sizer's with my 8mm and 30calibers. God Bless to all.
goofyoldfart aka GOF or goofy
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America " for an amount of "up to and including my life."
The accuracy seems to be good. The scope base did come loose on one of its three points and I don't know when that happened so that has skewed the results. This particular gun wasn't supposed to be able to do better than minute of pig at 25yds so the fact that it can hit a specific spot at 100yds is amazing. I doubt it will do well at longer ranges. Already I have poor 100m test results but the wind was up and gusting. Curiously, all the paper hits show a distinct angling hit at the bottom of the hole, almost as though the boolit was tending to keep its barrel orientation instead of the trajectory orientation.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
This thread kind of died without finding out if the 8X57s ever did get shooting decently.
I have a renewed interest, as I am planning on patching for a Turk and a Yugo real soon. Any further suggestions on favorite powders? I have BLC-2, 3031 and IMR 4350 as well as some Alliant 2400.
Offshore44,
If this is a "standard" 8x57 Mauser chamber per SAAMI specs, the forcing cone(FC) has a very small taper into the bore. If the PP is not in contact with the FC for alignment, leading and inaccuracy would be the expected result. Suggestions:
1. Whatever your final PPCB diameter is, prepare a brass rod w/squared ends to that diameter and insert it LONG into an EMPTY DUMMY case. Try chambering that EMPTY DUMMY round into your chamber and keep shortening the DUMMY round's OAL until you can close the bolt on it. The DUMMY round now tells you where the PP must be on your PPCB to be in contact with the FC. You can now adjust OAL and PP location to allow chambering and still maintain PP contact/alignment with the FC.
2. Try some progressive burning powder, i.e.W760, as close to 100% filling as pressure allows. This allows a more gradual acceleration of the PPCB and gives higher velocities.
3. With a clean barrel at the range, shoot a PPCB round and then run a dry nylon brush down the barrel to feel for any resistance due to leading. Resistance in front of the chamber, indicates PP tearing during chambering; i.e. FC entrance diameter is cutting the PP on too large a diameter PPCB. Resistance at mid-barrel, indicates PP slippage from the CB from a loose PP or sizing down a PPCB with a groove diameter CB. Resistance at the muzzle, indicates your PP is surviving most of the trip and you're close.
4. Finally, chambers can be cut to anything but SAAMI specs. You never really know until you cast the chamber or pound-swage a CB into your chamber.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
CJR
quote: 1. Whatever your final PPCB diameter is, prepare a brass rod w/squared ends to that diameter and insert it LONG into an EMPTY DUMMY case. Try chambering that EMPTY DUMMY round into your chamber and keep shortening the DUMMY round's OAL until you can close the bolt on it. The DUMMY round now tells you where the PP must be on your PPCB to be in contact with the FC. You can now adjust OAL and PP location to allow chambering and still maintain PP contact/alignment with the FC.
Or, seat the bullet long in an unsized case over enough slow powder to keep the bullet from being shoved into the case. When you chamber the round the patch will engage the rifling, center every thing up and should give good accuracy.
45 AUTO! Because having to shoot someone twice is just silly!
Still playing around with the Mauser's. The 24/47 shoots gas checked cast so well, that I haven't messed about with it for the additional 200 fps or so that a paper patched boolit would give me. The M48 on the other hand, is going to get a second look. It only shoots the gas checked boolits fair to middling as of yet compared to the 24/47. The throats on the Yugo's are not to SAMMI specs, not by a long shot. Add in the worn and frosted bore on the M48, and it will be a "special case", though not out of the ordinary for a 50+ year old Mil-Surp.
Seating long in an un-sized case is how I set COL. (in this case, neck sized just enough to retain the boolit in the case) No powder or primer though. The necks on a fired case for both rifles are large enough that a boolit, pp or not, falls into the case. I was going to try some reformed .30-06 cases to get a little more case neck thickness to play with on the M48. I finally collected enough to give it a try. They're sitting in a loading block ready to mess with right now, but other things are taking precedence at the moment. Too many tasks and not enough time right now.
Paper patching the M48 seems like a good winter time project...more to come.
Last edited by offshore44; 11-20-2013 at 03:41 PM.
Offshore44: Just a thought on the subject-- from reading many threads on the PP subject it seems to be a consensus of opinion to patch to the size of the THROAT of the rifle. this then allows the CB to swage down to the bore and groove and increases velocity without (generally speaking) increasing the pressures. it also (supposedly) gives a cleaner burn to the powder. Anyone may feel freel to correct me if I am wrong. God Bless to all and thiers.
Goofy
A veteran is someone who, at one point in his life wrote a blank check made payable to "The United States of America " for an amount of "up to and including my life."
Very true there GOF. That is one of the major paper patch innovations that has come out of this site and all of the work everyone here has done on paper patching. Patch to throat size.Originally Posted by goofyoldfart
The M48 is interesting in that when the boolit is patched to throat size, the patched boolit still is about 0.001 - 0.002" under the neck size fired brass. If I size and wrap to a snug push fit in the neck, the patch needs to be cut back to the case mouth to chamber. When I tried that. I'm pretty sure the patch got stripped right at the throat. It was a merry time scrubbing alloy out of the bore.
I am thinking of going back to square one, and starting with a cerrosafe chamber cast and a micrometer. With that task done, there should be a very clear picture of what I'm up against for dimensions and geometry. Hey! There's a really good Friday project for this week! I have this gut feeling that the chamber and throat on the M48 is at the outer limits of manufacturing tolerance. Add in the cleaning / corrosive ammo abuse and it would explain the issues that cropped up. The chamber / throat / barrel on the 24/47 is seriously about as good as it gets with a surplus rifle. They both have the same barrel from the same factory, installed about the same time. Even the head spacing on both rifles is close enough to swap bolts between them.
Then again, an NOS barrel is about $55 plus shipping. Never done a barrel before. I doubt that is needed though.
What I've done is shape profile the PPCB to fit an unsized case neck and fill the throat. That's where I came up with the curved patch idea. The curved patch works great but is a bitch to cut. One day I'll make a punch die.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
GOF,
I follow the NRA's advice on the final sized PPCB diameter; cited in their Cast Bullet Manual which is available as a free download at CastPics. I use SAAMI chamber dimensions or "pound-swages" to determine what final sized PPCB diameter can be chambered without cutting the PP. As an example, for my 308Win my final PPCB diameter is about 0.308"D to 0.309"D so that it can enter the 0.310" entrance diameter of the forcing cone without being cut. Likewise, my PP is positioned on the CB so that when the round is chambered the PP is against the chamber's forcing cone. This insures PPCB concentricity with the bore and promotes excellent accuracy. My factory rifle routinely delivers SUB MOA, 3000+fps groups at 100 yds. with PPCB so I'm a believer in what the NRA has recommended. That same rifle, with all weights of Sierra Match bullets, prints 100 yd group that are MOA or greater.
Best regards,
CJR
Last edited by CJR; 11-22-2013 at 05:40 PM. Reason: grammar
CJR - Where are your patches located in relation to the start of the ogive? Are you patching so that the patch starts back a ways? Curious, I messed about with this on the 24/47 and didn't get it to work in the few attempts that were tried.This insures PPCB concentricity with the bore and promotes excellent accuracy. My factory rifle routinely delivers SUB MOA, 3000+fps groups at 100 yds. with PPCB so I'm a believer in what the NRA has recommended. That same rifle, with all weights of Sierra Match bullets, prints 100 yd group that are MOA or greater.
Best regards,
CJR
What are you pushing past 3000 fps? That could be a pretty healthy increase in performance over j-words!
Offshore44,
I have three (3) 30 cal.CB which I'm shooting now; a standard 150gr LBTLFN (ogival design), a standard ~170gr. Lyman 311291 (bore-rider), and a specially father/son designed 180gr.PPCB design(ogival & cast @ 0.301"-0.302"). As mentioned previously, for each rifle I take a flat based jacket bullet and trim the base to have a sharp corner. Then a dummy round is prepared with the jacketed bullet seated nose-first and long. That dummy round OAL is adjusted until it just chambers in that rifle. This now tells me where the PP must be located on the CB so that the PP will be in contact with the chamber's forcing cone when loaded in the rifle. Likewise, I use this dummy round/gage at the range to inspect each PPCB before shooting. If a PP is slightly long, I cut it back to the dummy round OAL. So then after the NRA selected the proper cartridge OAL to allow proper rifle chambering, they located the PP to always be against the chamber's forcing cone. This then gave a PPCB with a bare forward section behind the ogive. Likewise, the final sized PPCB diameter is always kept less than the entrance diameter of the chamber's forcing cone so that the PP is not cut during loading.This has also worked well for me with no leading.
In my 308Win, I achieve 3000+ fps with the standard LBT 150gr.LFN mould (an ogival design) that is sized down carefully to 0.301-0.302"D and PP. The load I use for this bullet is right out of the Lyman 48th Ed. Reloading Manual. That load is listed as 50 gr. W748 for a JACKETED 150 gr.bullet with a velocity of 2996 fps at 43200C. My chron'ed PPCB velocity was 3034 fps with outstanding accuracy, i.e. first two bullets always touching at 100yds with the third opening the group to ~0.5". Obviously my PPCB is moving slightly faster than the jacketed one because of lower bore friction.
Hope this helps.
Best regards,
CJR
Thanks CJR, I can be a little dense sometimes. I now have a better understanding of what you are up to. Thanks!
Count me in on a "Postal"
I'll be looking forward to your results. I'm planning on taking my mint bore two-groove No4 soon. I have patched boolits made up for it from a mold I made specially. We should do a postal competition one day - Mausers versus Lee Enfields. That could be fun!
Let Your mercy, O LORD, be upon us, Just as we hope in You.
(Psa 33:22)
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.” -John Adams
Just a thought. Have your read '...The Paper Jacket...' by Paul Matthews? Interesting read, lots of info. Cheers!
I have recently been playing with the RCBS 32-170-FN im my 24/47 with extremely good results. The nose on that boolit is right on at .314" so when I size the whole thing down to that, it allows the nose to be supported all the way out. Patched with 15# printer paper and loaded over a duplexed charge of WC860 + IMR4227 is is shooting as good as I can see and tracks to the sights out to 800 yards. Cheaper to shoot than a 22LR now, and a whole lot more fun!
-Nobade
Good to hear Nobade! I haven't touched the Mausers with paper patched for awhile. I am having really good success with shooting gas checked out of the 24/47 and .30-06 cases sized to 8mm. The thicker case necks have helped a bit. The StG-58 project got in the way as well. I'm down to working up an accuracy load for it; the wife's 45-70 is perking along with cast (thanks for the help on the Blue Dot load there) so it may be time to go back to the 8mm paper patched stuff. The only other thing on deck is a Keith mold for the .44. That should be almost a no-brainer though.
Say, can we get a few more details on the duplex load your using?
Sure, it's about 5 gr. IMR4227 + enough 860 to make a compressed load with the boolit seated tight into the lands. I don't have the notes here handy but the amount of 860 in mine and yours probably would be different. Doesn't matter much, just fill it up to where it needs to be. Since I started loading 860 like this I haven't needed any fillers and accuracy as well as power is up compared to the fillered loads and faster powder. Oh, I size the cases (reformed military 30-06) just enough with the Lee collet die to provide a slip fit on the boolits that are patched up to .324". That chamber has a huge neck so I have to size some but I try to keep it minimal.
You can certainly duplex with other powders, most anything in that general burn rate that lights off easily works. 2400, 5744,4759 come to mind. The main thing is to make sure you have a compressed load which you would want anyhow with paper patched boolits.
If anybody contemplates trying this in a rifle that can possibly make 860 work right - i.e. big case and small bore do be careful. 25-06, 270, 6.5x55, etc could potentially be dangerous with duplexed loads of this powder. A 300 ultramag might be also. I haven't found a way to overpressure any normal 30 cal or bigger with it, with any sane duplex charges, but keep your head about you and be careful.
-Nobade
Hi guys. I haven't been a round much lately so it's good to pick up on a favourite topic. offshore44, I'd be inclined to concentrate on that worn bore rifle you have. I took a photo of my carbine bore and it's shocking! But it shot pretty well. I was using H4227 and wheat bran filler. I prefer the idea of using a slow powder as a filler though. I don't have any 860 but I do have some 780 which I duplexed with something or other and it lit off just fine and at low pressure which is what I wanted. It was not a compressed charge though and theoretically should have been safe but I'm not going to recommend it!
Here's the bore.
It's hard to imagine this bore shooting well! But it does. The throat sort of becomes the bore somewhere in front of the chamber but although the rifling is so shallow and rounded, a long and fully patched tapered boolit nestles into it just nicely and fits tightly into an unsized neck without compressing the core.
Last edited by 303Guy; 04-08-2014 at 02:20 AM.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
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