7.92x57 Experiment

[offshore44]

I have had such a good time, and such good success with patching my 458 Win Mag that I thought that I would try patching for my Mausers...beside the 8mm uses a LOT less lead and powder! Being a cheap bugger, that is a good thing.

Anyway, I only have one mold that throws in the 0.3245 +/- range and a sizer die to put the gas checks on and fill the lube groove. What to do?

I patched them with three wraps of 25# paper that I had laying around...and it was a dismal failure. They did turn out to be approximately the right size though. I was shooting for 0.312". With further experimenting I found that if I double wrapped with 20# paper, sized - double wrapped with 25# paper, sized - triple wrapped with 25# paper, sized, and I came up with a bullet diameter that closely approximated 0.312" and was a very firm push fit in the bore of one of my Mausers. Eurika! (They are the most out of round things that I've seen in awhile though. By about a thousandth or so.) Lots of work to get ten boolits to patch, and lots of rejects in the process. Luckily, lead melts more than once.

Anyway, I did up ten of them to shoot this weekend. We'll see what happens when I pull the trigger. If the results are promising, I'll invest a little of my scrounged brass money into a 0.312" push through sizing die.

I have another Mauser that has a bore and groove diameter that is a full 0.001" smaller than this, with an almost pristine bore. I shoot cast out of it exclusively with very good results. It's going to be interesting to see if I can work up a paper patched load that will work in both rifles. It would mean going at least 0.001" undersized for one rifle though. It has a really tight / short leade it seems.

Anyway! It's one more thing to play with...

[303Guy]

I'll be looking forward to your results. I'm planning on taking my mint bore two-groove No4 soon. I have patched boolits made up for it from a mold I made specially. We should do a postal competition one day - Mausers versus Lee Enfields. That could be fun!

[pdawg_shooter]

I think Lee has molds that drop .312. One of those and 2 wraps of 16# should be about right. Twenty bucks or so and you are good to go.

[offshore44]

I'll be looking forward to your results. I'm planning on taking my mint bore two-groove No4 soon. I have patched boolits made up for it from a mold I made specially. We should do a postal competition one day - Mausers versus Lee Enfields. That could be fun!

Mausers vs. Enfields would be a blast... "As Issued" even though the Lee-Enfield has a better sighting system for old guys.

I'm kind of surprised at the number of Mil Surp rifles floating around that are actually in superb condition. They tend to be pretty good shooters when they are in good condition, and pretty amazing when they are in really good condition.

I'm jealous of you folks that have, or have access to machine tools. This would be a lot easier if I could jump out to the shop and make the various tidbits that I need. Things like molds, sizing dies, loading die modifications and custom sight parts. Oh well, I guess part of the hobby is using what you have on hand to do what you need to do.

Lets think on the Mauser vs. Enfield postal match idea, and come up with something. Maybe an ongoing "Here's the latest target and technique" thread?

[offshore44]

I think Lee has molds that drop .312. One of those and 2 wraps of 16# should be about right. Twenty bucks or so and you are good to go.

I was looking at one of those... I was also thinking of trying my hand at making an adjustable mold like Paul Matthews talks about in his book on paper patching. It looks like I may be able to just about manage that with the tools that I have on hand or could borrow easily.

More to the story... I loaded up several dummy rounds to check out the fit and figure out the seating depth & ect. last night. Major fail. I was expecting to have to do a little fiddling around to get things worked out, but this was just a fiasco from start to finish. Everything from paper jammed into the seating die to bullets jammed WAY into the cases when chambering a round. Normal stuff for just starting out on a project like this though.

Tally Ho! Onward and upward!

[offshore44]

Made an interesting observation this afternoon while I was putzing around making 0.312" diameter boolits for my Mauser experiment.

The longer that you let the boolits sit in the sizing die, the rounder they are. That seems to work up to about 15 - 20 minutes or so. If I just jam them in and then pull them out...there is a difference of 0.0015' to 0.0025" in diameter measured around the boolit. There could be as much as 0.003" or so from one diameter to another on the length of the boolit. If I let them set for a few minutes, they even out and become more uniform over all. They still aren't perfect within the resolution of my measuring tools, but I would say that being within a half a' thousandth is pretty darn good for using what I have laying around the house.

Anyone else observed this? It seems that if I push the boolit into the die slowly and develop a "feel" for the resizing process, they come out more uniform. I'm betting the same process on the gas checked versions will yield better results as well. Learn something new every day it seems, when you pay attention.

[izzyjoe]

i've had good luck with the lyman 314299 sized to .312, and two wraps of notebook paper.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have an old Lyman 311-291 that casts .312, I thought two wraps, dry, of standard printer paper, 20 lb was close in my Yugo 8 x 57. Five rounds with just over 20 grains of IMR 4227 leaded the bore and sprayed them on target.. I shot five rounds of grease grouve to clear most of it and loaded five more same casting wraped only I added wheat bran to the base of the neck. The patch came out in much larger pieces simular to what I get with my muzzle loaders, they grouped reasonably well. I have not had time to try again.
I ask if anyone else had tried loading simular to what we use in M/Ls apperantly not. I hope to get a chance to work with this more.

[bcp477]

I use the RCBS FN170 bullet with great results. Sized to 0.314" with a Lee push through die (a standard die).....wrapped two layers with ordinary lined loose leaf notebook paper. The final wrapped dia. is 0.3235-6" or thereabouts. I then lube with Lee Liquid Alox and size to 0.323" (again, with a standard Lee push through sizer die). I load these over 32.5 grains of Hodgdon Benchmark (basically identical to IMR 3031).....with a small tuft of cotton or dacron fibre filler.

2150 fps through the 18" barrel on my Yugo M48.....and 1.5" or smaller groups, all day long. Good on whitetail deer, as well.

[offshore44]

Well, I got out with some friends and did some shooting yesterday with my ten "experimental" paper patched loads. I actually only shot five of them. The cases looked just fine, no overpressure or anything of that sort was evident.

I am 0 for 5 on getting lead on target though. I really have no idea where any of the five shots went. They certainly didn't hit the berm, that's for sure. I only shot them from one of my Mausers; the M48. It now has the nicest, most uniform plating of lead in the bore. I"m going to call this stage of the experiment a dismal failure, with the exception that I am going to call the learning experience a positive when I figure out what I did wrong...which is probably multiple things.

Onward and Upward!

Thanks for all of the input so far...keep'em coming!

[303Guy]

Mmmm.... ? I wonder what could have happened? I've had patch failure in a bore that had a sandpaper like texture. After some fire-lapping the patch survived. I don't recall getting leading in it though. Yours isn't rough (I think). I managed to do most things wrong in my attempts - or so I thought.

The trick I did was to start load development from the bottom up until the patch disintegrated properly. At lowest levels the patch would come out whole. Trouble is, for that you need a test tube.

I'm not able to relate to 20# & 25# paper (lbs, I know). I only look at thickness and 'quality (musn't be too strong or too dense). My current printer paper says 80g/m² (no idea what that would translate to in lbs) and measures 0.109mm (.0043"). The paper I use for patching measures 0.067mm (.0026) and it's lined notepad paper from the dollar store (deliberately trying to get lower grade or weaker paper). I use it for its thickness. (I stay away from tracing paper as it is too tough for my use).

My alloy is pretty soft being lead drain pipe with a chunk of soldered joint thrown in for the tin.

This one made it 50yds to the target of clay and stayed on!

The difference between the two shown is one had a wheat bran wad. The one that the patch stayed on.

[pdawg_shooter]

Try patching wet, with lots of stretch on the patch and twist the tails. Locks the patch to the bullet. Use good paper and a powder that will give as close as possible to 100% load density. Load to jacketed pressure and velocity. Works for me anyway.

[offshore44]

Good ideas there 303Guy and pdawg_shooter!

I suspect that one or more of my patches may have "slipped" and / or come off the bullet in the bore...that would explain the massive bore leading. I didn't see or find any patch fragments. Of course - I didn't see where the bullets went either! The bore on the M48 isn't perfect, but not what I would call rough. It has seen some use though, with corrosive mil-surp ammo that didn't do it any favors. It doesn't look like a gravel road, but it isn't smooth. The bore on the 24/47 is "as new". Nice rifle that shoots GC cast accurately right now. I think that it should shoot paper patched rather nicely once I get the hang of patching for it.

I went out and obtained a 7/8" - 14 thread grade 8 bolt from the local hardware store and started working on a push through sizing die for the loading press. I don't have machine tools, so it's all hand work with basic hand tools. That's fun, but a lot of time consuming messing about.

On paper sizes: The 20# velum tracing paper is right at 0.0025" thick, and is some tough stuff. Put on wet it comes out under that thickness by a half a thousandth or so after it dries. The 25# paper is about 0.003" thick, plus a little. It doesn't shrink much put on wet, and turns into the densest - hardest stuff imaginable when you smash it in a sizing dies. I have some 16# paper that is about 0.0016" thick, and is very delicate. VERY easy to tear if you try to put it on wet, though damp works OK if mind your p's and q's.

The bullets that I was patching were made from water dropped wheel weights. They were probably too hard. I have about half a dozen or a few more soft lead bullets that I may play with to see how they work. I know that they size way easier than the WDWW ones!

Well - off to the races with this. Next up, soft lead sized to 0.312", two wraps of velum with a twisted tail - put on damp for a diameter of 0.323", lube with Alox and a different powder. Those are going in the 24/47 with the nice bore.

Oh, and I'm going to carry the paper a little further over the ogive than I did on the last ones.

[bcp477]

You mentioned o.312" a couple of times in your initial post.....but you never said what your final, wrapped bullet diameter was/ is. I assume that you meant that the bullet diameter, BEFORE patching, was 0.312". What is it after patching ? You mentioned an M48. As I am sure that you already know, the bore dia. of an M48 should be in the neighborhood of 0.314".....and the groove dia. should be around 0.323". Were you indicating, in your first post, that one of your Mausers has a bore dia. of 0.312".....and the other 0.001" less (or 0.311") ?

Just need some clarification - as a starting basis to make an attempt to figure out your problem. I also believe that we don't have details on your load (powder type and charge). The more precise data that we have to consider, the better the chance we can figure out your problem.

As it stands.....the problem could one (or more) of many factors : patched bullet too small, patched bullet too large, patch failure in the bore, too hot a load, too soft a bullet alloy(though I think you said the alloy was perhaps too hard- in your last post), etc. etc.

[303Guy]

Works for me anyway.

That seems to be what's working for me but my pressures are still on the mild side. I do get the impression that as the bore polishes up the higher the velocity and pressure can be.

[offshore44]

You mentioned o.312" a couple of times in your initial post.....but you never said what your final, wrapped bullet diameter was/ is. I assume that you meant that the bullet diameter, BEFORE patching, was 0.312". What is it after patching ? You mentioned an M48. As I am sure that you already know, the bore dia. of an M48 should be in the neighborhood of 0.314".....and the groove dia. should be around 0.323". Were you indicating, in your first post, that one of your Mausers has a bore dia. of 0.312".....and the other 0.001" less (or 0.311") ?

Just need some clarification - as a starting basis to make an attempt to figure out your problem. I also believe that we don't have details on your load (powder type and charge). The more precise data that we have to consider, the better the chance we can figure out your problem.

As it stands.....the problem could one (or more) of many factors : patched bullet too small, patched bullet too large, patch failure in the bore, too hot a load, too soft a bullet alloy(though I think you said the alloy was perhaps too hard- in your last post), etc. etc.

All good questions...all good questions...
The M48 Yugo will allow me to push a lead cylinder that is 0.312" in diameter down into the bore with very firm thumb pressure. The groove diameter on that one is just a hair over 0.323" by slugging the bore.

The 24/47 has a bore diameter of just a hair over 0.311" and a groove diameter of 0.323" right on the money from slugging it several times. (The 24/47 has a three digit serial number and all the numbers match except for the trigger guard, which has been force matched with an elctro-pencil during an arsenal rebuild at some point.) The barrel appears to be in about as perfect a condition as can be.

The PPCB's were 0.324" in diameter after processing and ready to load. I ran them through my 0.324" sizer that I use for the GCCB's and all that the sizer did was smooth the Alox out on the paper some. They were some WDWW's that I had on hand for making up my gas checked loads for the 24/47. I didn't check the hardness, but could.

I tried 44.0 grains of Varget powder, measured on a scale. That is not even a full case, but I have some Varget that I'm trying to figure out what to do with. I thought, "What the heck!?". CCI LR primers, WW cases - once fired and full length resized. (The chambers on the 24/47 and the M48 are not the same size.)

The M48 shoots the 8mm Sierra Match King J-words well enough, but nothing like the 24/47 shoots Lyman #2 or WDWW gas checked bullets. When I'm having a good day at the range, it'll consistently go into an inch +/- at 88 yards for five shots. That's one ragged hole about an inch in diameter. Won't do it every time though, and that is my fault not the rifles. Those Yugo sights are not easy on old eyes.

I thought that it would be pretty cool to be able to shoot paper patched out of both rifles, and just dump the j-word bullets altogether...not that Sierra isn't a fine company to do business with...but they are a little more than I can afford to just burn through.

For the time being I am stuck with what I have on hand, or can make with the tools that I have. I do appreciate the suggestions on molds and such, but it is going to be awhile before I can go that route.

I guess that I better get serious about this 8mm paper patching stuff now...you all are putting a lot of time into steering me straight! Thanks, bye the way...

Edited to add: "A Hair" is about one or two ten-thousandths of an inch. My Brown & Sharp micrometer has a resolution of one ten-thousandth of an inch on the barrel. I don't use the vernier scale though, I just call it a fat half, plus a hair, minus a hair etc. A change in temperature on a lead bullet will cause it to grow or shrink a ten-thousandth, I'm guessing. Maybe not on the 8mm but probably on the .458's.

[izzyjoe]

well good luck in you'r testing, don't give up to easy. you'll figure it out.

[offshore44]

well good luck in you'r testing, don't give up to easy. you'll figure it out.

I won't give up, it's not in my nature to to let a machine beat me.

What I'll probably end up doing is trading in my scrounged brass for cash in a couple of months, and then spending that on one of the recommended molds. Maybe get one of the recommended powders if I have any cash left over.

It's interesting to try stuff with a low probability of success, just to see if you can make it work. You just have to bite the boolit, so to speak, and do what others have successfully done eventually though. When you try to reinvent the wheel, you end up with a wheel. Just like everyone elses wheel.

(and wrap'em up!)

[bcp477]

OK, thanks for the further information. It appears that your bullet sizing/ patched diameter is fine....no problem there. It also would seem that your rifles are not to blame (badly pitted bores, etc.).

I'm glad you've got two good Yugo Mausers. I am really fond of these old rifles....and the Yugo Mausers, in my opinion, don't get the credit they deserve. My old M48 is strictly a "mutt".....it came to me with a different barrel than original, mis-matching numbers, etc. But, I liked it from the start, for whatever reason....so I have tweaked it and upgraded it.....and I can honestly say that I don't care if I ever have another rifle. It is now like an old friend - that never let's me down. A while ago, I re-barreled it, with a so-called "takeoff" barrel from Numrich - which I lucked into. The barrel is a spare military one, which had never been mounted on a rifle - and which was absolutely pristine....essentially brand new, only 50-odd years old. I was re-building the rifle into a sporter anyway, so I bobbed it to 18", crowned it....and installed it on the rifle. I modified a nice walnut 24/47 stock for it....in the old style, like pre-war Mauser sporters. The end result works perfectly for me....and shoots as well as I can (better, in fact). With my PP load, 1.5" or better, at 100 yards. With J-words (which I seldom shoot anymore), sub 1" groups, with the right load (and when I am shooting well).

"44.0 grains of Varget"........ that'd likely be the reason for the severe leading in your barrel, IMO. I think that load is simply too hot for your bullets. I know that you said that your bullets are of a very hard alloy, but contrary to the assertions of some, it is NOT always possible to get to J-word velocities with PP, in these rifles. With my M48, for instance, if I push much past 2300 fps.....I get leading and no accuracy....no matter what combination I've tried. Different powders, harder bullet alloy, etc., have made no difference. I don't know why, perhaps it has something to do with the relatively fast twist rate of these barrels (1 in 9.45")....vs. a more relaxed twist in a "modern" 30/06 or .308. That's only a guess. But, I have never been able to get to the kind of velocities some here claim for their PP rifles. I'd suggest dropping your charge weight a good deal. If you still have a full length barrel, as opposed to the shorty my rifle wears, then Varget should be a fine choice....but something more like 36 grains. Minimum safe charge weight for Varget, in the 7.92 x 57 case, is about 33 grains (65 % of full case volume)........ so 35 or 36 grains would not require filler. You could try a bit less, say 32 grains......but then add a tuft of cotton or dacron wool on top of the powder charge. This would make the load safe. My best PP load is 32.5 grains, albeit with Hodgdon Benchmark (which is almost identical to IMR 3031).....faster than Varget.....due to my shorty barrel. I use cotton or dacron wool, eventhough the powder charge is borderline safe....because I have gotten an accuracy improvement with it. But, fillers are a controversial area, which many wish to avoid. In any case, I bet a good deal lighter charge will give better results.

[303Guy]

I was thinking along the same lines as bcp477 but without experience with the 8x57 I did not want to comment.