Broken nipple on my Seneca

[cavalrymedic]

In a previous thread, I asked for advice on a Seneca that wouldn't fire. After careful consideration, I decided to buy a nipple wrench and remove the old nipple and clean out the fire channel. Seems like my fire channel must be clogged cause my #11 caps were popping but not detonating the charge. Anyway, I got the wrench in today and tried removing the nipple, but it would not budge. GRRRRR. More force and as you may guess, I stripped the corners off of the nipple. I tried to horse it off with needle nose pliers and even vice grips, but the stem of the nipple sheared and now all I have left it the threaded portion, still stuck in the nipple hole. Any thoughts? I may have to take it to a good gunsmith if I can't figure this out. Also, will a gunsmith accept my rifle with a charge still in the barrel?

Ken

[scb]

Also, will a gunsmith accept my rifle with a charge still in the barrel?

Ken

We use to when I did this sort of work. Just be sure you let them know it's still loaded. Very little would pi$$ us off more that to get one that was loaded and not be told that it was. It's usually not big deal to pull the ball/bullet and get the charge out. Once the charge is out a little heat with a torch will generally loosen the rust so you can get what's left of the nipple out. Kroil might have saved you this headache.

[SmuvBoGa]

Depending on you, you could try a "left twist" extractor - tap it & screw it down into the nipple port & then back her out. Let it soak in Kroil or Marvel Mystry Oil before trying the extractor. Either will "numb" the black powder. Need a GOOD vise - possibly a 2nd set of hands. Think this thru before doing - or you can have a royal mess.

JMc

[405]

Well, I guess the previous owner bought into the often repeated advice that you don't really need to take the nipple out and clean/lube whenever cleaning a caplock after a day's shooting- obvious evidence in hand of that wisdom.

For sure try to unload it. Take a small drill on a long rod and put a pilot hole in the bullet/ball. Put a fairly coarse screw in a long strong rod and screw it into the bullet/ball. TRY to pull the projectile out and scrape/flush out the powder. Alternate between heat and Kroil both in the breech (inside the bore where the flash hole will carry the oil to the nipple) and around the remaining stem of the nipple on the outside. Do this 2-3 times over a day or so. Drill an appropriate sized hole enlarging the flash hole in the nipple.... matching that to an appropriate sized EZ Out (or whatever they are called). Slowly start reverse screwing the EZ Out into the nipple stem. Be cautious about how much torque to put on the EZ Out. Those things are very hard and they can break. If it breaks...ughh.

If not up to the task, seriously consider just taking it to a gunsmith you trust to do the job.

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

you can soak the end of the barrel in penetrating oil it will do 2 things kill that charge and ,maybe loosen the nipple , you can also pour some down the barrel while the end of the barrel is soaking , then pull the ball with a ball puller

or take it to the gun smith and let them do it

this ordeal will have you never for getting to clean clean clean the flash channel and nipple ever again

if your short on confidence right now take it to the smith tell them the hole story they will get you back to the range as soon as their schedule has time to work on it

[cavalrymedic]

well I must admit, the whole thing is my fault. Never thought of taking out the nipple before this happened. I didn't know it was one of the maintenance tasks. Now I do. I want to see how much my local gunsmith charges for this and then decide if I can afford it or just try it myself. I don't have any Kroil, but I've added that to my wishlist. Seems like it's pretty handy as a mold lube too. Thanks to all for the advice.

[Geraldo]

I'll give you a no-BS assessment. You've managed to round off and then break off a nipple with a nipple wrench and needle nose pliers. This is no easy task and it does not speak of a delicate touch. If you've never used an EZ out, or never heard of an EZ out, this isn't the way for you to learn how to use one.

Right now you have options and what would most likely be a low cost job if you get a smith to do it. Screw it up at this point and your options decrease as the cost goes up.

As the great gunsmith, Harry Callahan, said, "A man's got to know his limitations."

[cavalrymedic]

Well, it was far easier than you think Geraldo, but I am taking your advice to heart. I am reasonably good with tools and I've used an easy out before, but since the nipple is frozen in, I'll cut my losses and take it to my GunSmith. He quoted me $35 to $45 and 2-4 weeks. Plenty of time for hunting season. When I get it back, I think I shall have learned many many lessons from all of my castboolit advisors.

[DIRT Farmer]

You listed a fairly stiff load you were using. In my long range rifles the nipple would be hard to pull for cleaning after a few shots. I was using heavy grease on the threads but fouling still would fill the threads and require a steady hand on pulling the nipple. I was given the tip of using teflon tape on the threads, now the nipple is much easier to remove.

[cavalrymedic]

I appreciate the advice. I dropped the rifle off today at the gunsmith. He told me that he would pull the nipple, install a grease fitting and push the charge out using a grease gun. Interesting technique. He also insisted on sending the gun back to T/C to have the "can't remember what he called it" replaced. It is essentially the breech plug that also has the nipple on it. I told him to take out the stuck nipple and let me decide if I needed a new whatcha ma callit. He said it was because he saw some rust around the nipple, he figured that the thingy must be replaced. I think I'll just spring for a barrel off of gunbroker if that turns out to be the case.

The 90 grains of pyrodex is indeed a stiff load. I was trying to practice with what I intend to use for hunting this season. Maybe I should take it down a notch from what I'm reading here.

[DIRT Farmer]

When my kids were small, just begining to hunt deer, I loaded 50 grns of ffg and a Thompson Center maxie for them to hunt with. It gave definate pass through on a deer. The same slug and 70 grns of ffg is almost up to the 45 70.
The Seneca makes a great off hand target rifle with an after market barrel. You can buy a Green Mountain barrel and breech plug, have them fitted and spend as much as you can stand on sights. That will make you a compition gun that will work anywhere. Before I spent much on another T-C barrel keep the one you have and set up another for a target gun.

[Geraldo]

TC doesn't charge for warranty service (or didn't before they got bought up), but they could decide that the breechplug/drum is OK, or that it isn't warranty work. I think you're making the right call in deciding yourself whether or not it needs to go back. "Some rust" doesn't necessarily mean anything needs to be replaced. Even if the threads in the drum are completely boogered, that doesn't mean you need a whole new breechplug.

[smoked turkey]

I purchased a TC .54 Renegade flintlock from a listing on the big guns for sale web site. The seller was less than honest about the condition. I sent the barrel to TC after calling customer service because I couldn't remove the flash hole nipple for cleaning. This is much like the stuck nipple in a caplock. TC removed the part, put in a brand new one anf returned it to me without charge. This solved most of my problems with the rifle. I think once you get the nipple removed, the rifle as clean as you can, you can try shooting it and then decide whether of not it needs to go back to the factory. If so I think they will treat you right and you will be glad you spent the time to have them look at it.

[crazy mark]

I use anti-seize on my nipple threads and never have had one not come out. I also usually blow out a charge and ball using my air compressor instead of a ball puller. 125#'s of air seems to work good.

[smoked turkey]

+1 what crazy mark said. I use a small length of rubber gas line which seems to fit over the nipple just fine and then use my air nozzle which just fits inside the hose. Pop and its done. Almost too easy.

[Tom-ADC]

If that's a T/C Seneca aren't the breech plugs and the drum the nipple screws in removable? Get a breech plug tool and remove the plug shake the powder out and tap the ball out. I'm a old guy and I use "Oil of Wintergreen"to soak stuck rusted part for ease of removal.
BTW when you do the plug protect the barrel real good. Track of the Wolf will have the tool if Thompson doesn't.
Might be a better idea to have a local gunsmith remove the plug and drum on 2nd thought.

[jmh54738]

Hi Ken, PM sent. John

[cavalrymedic]

I should explain what I mean by "a little rust." It was rust free when I took it out to go shooting just three weeks ago. No rust around the nipple whatsoever. After the misfire, and my pathetic attemots to remove the nipple, I used an oil soaked rag to wipe down the barrell, hammer, and other parts. I obviously missed the metal around the nipple, so, a very fine layer of easily wiped off rust accumulated there. My bad, but not at all indicative of a badly rusted, or moderately rusted or neglected part. That's why I'm hesitant to have it sent back to T/C, that and potential cost. The nipple being siezed is again, all my fault. This Seneca is my first foray into BP muzzleloading. I didn't get any instructions with her. I never considered it even possible, let alone routine. Thanks to this forum, I will be taking MUCH better care of the Seneca when I get it back from the smith.

[mooman76]

If you know that is the case for a fact, I would not send it back either. Being familiar with MLs I know how easy it is to miss a small spot and it will corrode and rust quickly. I don't remove my nipples for cleaning every time I shoot but I like to do it at least every other time or if I know I am not going to be shooting it any time again soon. I just put a little light oil on it so it removes easy the next time I clean it. I was lucky and found out early about the nipples. I had to replace a nipple on a new to me ML(my first rifle) and after examining it, decided it was a good idea to remove it for cleaning often.

[Geraldo]

If that's all the rust there is, I wouldn't worry about it. Although I doubt TC would charge you for anything, I'm not sure that they would have parts for this rifle because it was discontinued a long time ago. It would be worth a phone call to find out. The Hawken and Renegade (and some others) used the same locks, triggers, and 15/16" or 1" barrels. The Seneca, Cherokee, and Patriot pistol used a smaller lock, different triggers, and 13/16" barrels.

If worse comes to worse, Track of the Wolf sells new breechplugs for all TC barrels here:

http://www.trackofthewolf.com/Catego...43&styleID=520

$30 plus having someone put it in.

The other option if the threads are boogered is what Green Mountain did when they screwed up nipple threads. The put in helicoils with the right thread and moved on. Although some people thought this was wrong, I talked to two different engineers (one aerospace and one involved in testing metal strength) who said it was perfectly adequate.

So your options are that the smith gets it out, send it to TC, buy a new breechplug and save the barrel, or possibly helicoil it.