Lead Fumes let's settle this.

[prs]

I quit using a dry tumbler and wet tumble now with detergent and citric acid solution.

prs

[Marlin Junky]

Even though I cast in the garage with a couple of the doors open for cross ventilation, I'm going to start wearing a mask while fluxing, which is just before I start pouring and possibly in the middle of the casting session assuming the oxides get to the point where they start appearing in my boolits (which is not all that often because of my pouring technique). Perhaps someone can tell me (perhaps Glen) if those silly looking masks the hygienists wear will work... how about a wet rag over the mouth and nose? Can I take the mask off after the smoke has cleared? Do I need to call OSHA before returning to my garage after each flux? I can't afford health insurance any more, Obama... please help me!

I am serious about the masks, though.

MJ

P.S. OK, I just thought of another question or two: Is the action of stirring the melt more or less conducive to expelling lead oxides into the air than the rising hot air from burning flux? Here's another: Do the lead oxide particles attach themselves to smoke molecules? I've definitely inhaled my share of smoke from burning paraffin over the last 30 odd years. I tell you what though, when I flux, it looks like someone has just lit a barbeque with too much lighter fluid and I stand as far back as that long handle on my Rowell#2 will allow. I always have a fire extinguisher near by but in three or four decades of casting, I've never needed it.

[Charlie Two Tracks]

No joke on the mercury! We used to do that. It was fun to play with and the teacher didn't care.

[Marlin Junky]

No joke on the mercury! We used to do that. It was fun to play with and the teacher didn't care.

Really... when did you go to grammer school? I remember a teacher telling us to be careful with thermometers because the Hg can "burn" you. Funny what one remembers from decades ago. Now let's get back on topic!

MJ

[Harter66]

I work in a HAZ-MAT facility,so I'm told. During my work and personal we did full blood work ups. My lead is nearly non-exsitant. I cast in a simple cross draft and smelt outside, I fully concur w/the smelt being by far the highest hazard. It is when we over heat the melt and burn off all the junk, brake dust,grease,oil,rubber,poly-plastic adhesives, bio-hazard wastes, i'm sure there's more. I have to share my casting bench w/assorted other tools so a wet towel wipe down job by job is probably why I stay clean.

[cbrick]

I had my lead levels checked again several months ago. Doc didn't give me any numbers, he just said lead levels were in the low normal adult range. I was happy enough with that answer considering the amount of lead that I handle I didn't ask any more questions about it.

I agree completely with Glen, ventilation, for me over kill ventilation. I have ceiling vents directly over the pot that pull even the heaviest smoke from sawdust out, out of the pot and straight up & out. I can stand next to my pot while fluxing and not smell the burning sawdust. I can't heat the shop in the winter or use A/C in the summer while casting because the vents are effective enough to pull out the heat or A/C just as fast as smoke from the fluxing. I smelt outdoors away from everything, everybody.

I installed a laundry room sink in my loading room so I can clean up after handling lead. After removing brass from the tumbler I can't get to the sink fast enough. Plus for the tumbler I give the corn medium a light mist of water to keep the dust down. Not wet, just enough to keep the dust down.

In about 30 years of casting & handling lead I have never had a high lead count in my blood so the ventilation & keeping hands cleen must be working. I don't get carried away with thinking lead is radioactive and gonna jump out & get me, I just try to use a little common sense.

Rick

[Char-Gar]

Nothing is every settled on this board.

[BerdanIII]

Marlin Junky: Those 3M-style paper/polyester/polly-wants-a-cracker face masks are useless against lead dust. They don't seal well enough around your nose and mouth to keep out anything smaller than crickets. I used to work in a secondary lead smelter and the respirators we used were the kind with replaceable dust/gas cartridges. Those work, but they can be annoying and some people have allergic reactions to the rubber. I think 3M makes those, too, so check out their website. I think a standard dust cartridge would be fine, although a combo dust/organic or dust/H2S might be the thing if it gets smokey. The more cartridges you pile on, however, the greater breathing resistance becomes. Tech support could probably steer you in the right direction. The guys that rebuilt the reverb furnaces and cleaned out the blast furnaces had forced-air helmets.

Personal hygiene is critical to keeping down blood leads. I shuttled back and forth between the plant and corporate and sometimes changed uniforms and took showers three times a day to keep from contaminating the secretaries (in a bad way).

[MtGun44]

The arsenic issue pointed out by Glen is something that I was unaware of. As to the lead,
the partial pressure at casting temps (like lurch pointed out) is in the millionths of a mm
of mercury (units of pressure, 760 mm = 14.7 psi) so while SOME lead does leave as
vapor, it is going to be difficult to even measure. Arsenic issue is new to me, and I will take
Glen as the expert on that one.

As to lead, IMO you will get MUCH more exposure by other means, especially shooting at
an indoor range than from casting. Sounds like ventilation for arsenic is a good idea.

Bill

[Marlin Junky]

Sounds like ventilation for arsenic is a good idea.

Bill

PbO2 is an issue as well.

MJ

[geargnasher]

My bll went up last year so I bought a couple of lead test kits to locate the source. These are the ampules (sp) that you squeeze to release the test fluid onto the cotton swab.
I never set my lead pot temp. for over 800' and smelted in a different area.
I found lead when I swabbed the wood around my lead pot up to a line about 3" on my side of the pot. This was wood fresh from HD that I built my "casting closet" out of. I tested some leftover scraps of this wood and they tested negative for the lead. I had been using a fan behind me but when I found where the lead was I installed a 20" box fan on the far side of the pot to pull the fumes away from me.
I attached a piece of aluminum to my shirt on my chest that I tested for lead, then cast for about 3 or 4 hours. When I restested there was no lead on the plate. The box fan tested positive for lead after the casting session.
I was an OSHA certified hazardous waste worker for awhile while working for a major city and if I would have found this in a workplace it would have cause for some clean-up and changes.
There is also a warning in Lyman's 3rd Edition manual about lead dust in the casting area.

Test kits are simple and easy to use and run from about $10 to $20. If you want to know if there is lead in your casting area buy a kit and test it.

That right there is proof enough to use proper ventilation. The lead got out of the pot, went through the air, and got on the fan, regardless of what form it took. If it wasn't for the fan some of it would be in your lungs. Probably a significant amount over time.

I'm in the process of planning my new reloading/casting room, and I remember seeing pictures of your casting booth somewhere, my goal is to do something similar. An outside air intake down low under the bench and a high-volume exhaust fan above and behind the pot is the basic idea, with sides and a valance to help keep any fumes going out the exhaust.

Thanks for your work and reports.

Gear

[mroliver77]

Thanks for all the answers. I knew as much about the dust dangers. I too am planning a new casting bench. I picked up[ a used hood and fan. In thinking it through there are some other issues I need to address also.

Thanks to Glen for replying.

Jay

[leadman]

I think the fan in front of you pulling the fumes away is enough to do the job if large enough, like my 20" box fan.
I found with another fan behind me when I fluxed the smoke would swirl around close to me and sometimes around me. The smoke changed directions if I moved also. I stand when casting.
At times before I built this the wind would blow into the garage and blow the fumes around me. That is why I went to the 3 walls.

This is what my "casting closet" looked like. I have since disassembled it and now have a set-up I can move. Had my truck painted and wanted to get it in the garage. Also sold the shotmaker and quit selling boolits.

[Bradley]

Whatever your opinion about this, if you cast or shoot a lot of cast bullets it would be a good idea to get a blood lead level test at the end of your shooting year. If you live in snow country, the end of a shooting year is set by mother nature.

If your lead level is high, over 30, you've got a problem. It if isn't, you don't.

Cost about $125. If you can get your insurance company to pay for it, it might just be free.

So rather than debate this, find out.

If you have a high lead level, just doing nothing for a few months should solve the problem. So take a couple months off and have your lead level tested again. Removes all the mystery.

[JCools]

I'm a 4th gen plumber.My father,grandfather and great grandfather,worked w/ lead pots on jobs for years.W/o any adverse effects.A lot of these studies gorge a lab rat w/ concentrated amounts of a substance. Then claim the substance is bad for you.

[snuffy]

I cast indoors in an unventilated bedroom. At least once a week summer and winter. The ONLY ventilation is during the summer when I can open a window and run the bathroom exhaust fan. I don't always do even that.

The above is to set up the latest lead test that was 2 weeks ago on Tuesday. It was 9.0! Smelting is done outside in the summer,(too damn cold in the winter).

Too many people believe what the EPA tells them. Their agenda is to remove lead from everywhere just to stop us from hunting and shooting. Conspiracy theory? Maybe, but I believe it.

I used to love to hunt ducks. I haven't since seeing all the cripples brought about by the lead shot ban. The early steel was garbage, destroyed barrels, brought about a lot of crippled ducks. The newer non-toxic shot is much better, but I can't afford to buy a box of those shells. 5 shells cost what 25 used to cost.

[DrB]

I've done a little reading on the subject.... Like most things, I'm sure you have to append "it depends" to the following, but this is what I've recently come across in a survey article.

Ingestion through consumption leads to about 40-50% absorption for children, but only about 10% for adults. Calcium uptake is a related mechanism apparently and kids are much more likely to absorb lead than adults (growing bones).

Respiration, however, I've seen quoted as more like 90% absorption for adults... So breathing vapor, smoke, or respirable dust is a more efficient way of absorbing lead.

While I do believe that lead vapor pressure is low, I don't think vaporization is the only mechanism for lead getting into the lungs. I would bet that a significant amount of lead piggybacks on smoke particles from fluxing. Lead doesn't have to be a gas to be airborne. There are also the other materials like arsenic and arsenic compounds, wheelweight burn off, etc.

Anyway, I have a mask with hepa filter I've worn while casting, that eventually I plan on sending to a buddy for lead leachate extraction. It'll be interesting to see how much lead the mask stopped.

By the way, when guys post blood lead levels, can you state the units? Some labs/doctors use a normalized scale and it can be difficult to know what the numbers mean if you don't state the units and or scale of measurement. I would really like to know what other guys are finding, so that would be helpful to know...

Best regards,
DrB

[cbrick]

Interesting, let us know what you find out.

Rick

[Old Caster]

Snuffy, I think you are right on. Do a search on line and you will find out that lead levels in blood were said to be high if they were in the 60's in the 50's and 60's. Each few years the level is lowered so now 13 is what is commonly quoted. Some areas of the U.S. will give you a level of 13 if you never play with lead at all. All of this rhetoric is so the government can be larger. Government jobs never become less. The only time in my life that I have had high lead levels is when I shot and called the line in an indoor league. In other words, I was out on the line 3 times as much as anyone else. When I quit shooting at the indoor range my lead level dropped to normal for the area in a very short time even though I was still casting. I have been casting since I was 13, am 66 now and am highly competetive in the Sr. Olympics. Maybe when I am 80 I'll change my mind and let someone who is 90 do it for me.

[C.F.Plinker]

I use the MSA half face respirator (Model 00817663) with P100 cartridges. which is rated to protect against lead fumes among other gases, dusts, and fumes. My understanding is that masks have a rating as to how much they block the stuff they are supposed to filter out of the air. In this case it blocks 100 percent of the bad stuff. When you go to the store see of there is a rating on the mask you are looking at getting.

Years ago I used a painters mask at the league. It had a washable foam filter as the filtering medium. I was amazed at how much it collected just after a few range sessions.