Lyman 457125 vs Lee 500gr Pointed round nose

[Kyle M.]

I've been shooting various .45-70 rifles with cast boolits for about 10 years now, but I didn't start casting my own until 7 years ago. I currently have a Pedersoli Sharps with a 32" barrel and have been using the Lee .459 500gr Pointed Round Nose mold. My bore slugs at .458" and I size to .459", and pan lube with my own variation of the old beeswax, crisco, canola oil mix. I've been using 28.0 grains of IMR4198 and this load shoots as well as I can shoot it at 100 yards which is all I have available.

Now knowing that one can never have too many molds I am currently the high bidder on a Lyman/Ideal 457125 mold. I've been looking for one of these molds for a couple of months now and I might be able to get this one for less than what a new one sells for. My question is has anyone here used both molds and should I expect any real difference? I realize a lot of this could just depend on the individual rifle. I like the idea that the Lyman mold is closer to the 1882 500gr military bullet but I understand that it's not an exact copy? I haven't seen a direct comparison and I have no intention of pulling the bullets from the 1880's dated .45-70 cartridges in my collection to compare. Another thing that came to mind while I was typing this is I use 20:1 or as close as I can get for my .45-70 cast loads, but does anyone know what lube was used for the original military .45-70 cartridges? I'm sure it was mentioned in the excellent books on the Trapdoor Springfield by Al Frasca, but considering I sold my set I can't just go look it up. Something makes me think it was some extract of some odd plant that only grows in New England?

Someday I'd like to be able to duplicate that exact load even if I can't squeeze a full 70 grains of BP into modern cases if I can get the velocity that's good enough, but it doesn't seem that anyone makes an exact duplicate mold for the 500gr military bullet.

I supposed this could just be a simple case me trying to justify the purchase of another mold.

[alfloyd]

With the Lee you will NOT get 70 grains of black powder in the case.
It goes too far into the case to reach the crimp groove.

Lafaun

[Kyle M.]

Well I won it, paid a bit more than I wanted to but I'm still doing better than the guy who's about to pay $202 for a 457132 without handles!

[Kyle M.]

With the Lee you will NOT get 70 grains of black powder in the case.
It goes too far into the case to reach the crimp groove.

Lafaun

From what I’ve read over the years it sounds like I won’t get more than about 65 grains of BP into any modern .45-70 brass anyway. At least not without severe compression.

Does anyone have a photo of what the actual military 1882 500 gr bullet looks like? I hear it’s close to the 457125 but not exactly the same. I’m curious as to how close it actually is?

[Bent Ramrod]

If I recall, there are pictures in Spencer Wolf’s Trapdoor Cartridges book of both bullets. The only difference was related to the fact that the military bullets were swaged lead, with cannelures rolled into them for the lubricant, and a slightly dished base.

The Ideal moulds had square grease grooves for lube, and flat bases. Otherwise, the same profiles.

[Kyle M.]

If I recall, there are pictures in Spencer Wolf’s Trapdoor Cartridges book of both bullets. The only difference was related to the fact that the military bullets were swaged lead, with cannelures rolled into them for the lubricant, and a slightly dished base.

The Ideal moulds had square grease grooves for lube, and flat bases. Otherwise, the same profiles.

Well if that’s it that certainly seems close enough for me, Thanks.

[Bad Ass Wallace]

These various cast bullets are what I use in my 45/70. The one second from the left is suposedly a copy of the boolit that you seek. I can get a full 70gns of 2F in the load.

[Chill Wills]

The 1881 bullet is a true round nose that uses a half hemisphere up front.
Saeco makes as true a copy as you could want by casting them.
Rapine, when in business did also.
They have three large grease grooves and do cast a 500 grain bullet.

The Lyman version is slightly longer, 4-GG, weighs in at 515 to 520 grains and though a round nose, has a very small trunk section with in the nose. I will post a picture later tonight.
Dinner time.

[Kyle M.]

The 1881 bullet is a true round nose that uses a half hemisphere up front.
Saeco makes as true a copy as you could want by casting them.
Rapine, when in business did also.
They have three large grease grooves and do cast a 500 grain bullet.

The Lyman version is slightly longer, 4-GG, weighs in at 515 to 520 grains and though a round nose, has a very small trunk section with in the nose. I will post a picture later tonight.
Dinner time.

Thanks for the info. This is just what I was looking for, while I knew the Lyman had 4 grease grooves I didn't know that the original 500 gr bullet did not. I suppose you can never have too much lube with a 32" barrel.

[Kyle M.]

The 457125 showed up today, and ideas what era this one is from?

[Kyle M.]

I finally got a chance to try out the mold tonight. I was in a hurry and forgot to pre-heat it, only took about 4 or 5 bullets to get up to temp. I cast 25 to do a test run and there was some resistance in my .459" sizer so I think they'll be good to go. I'm going to pan lube them tonight or tomorrow and they'll be ready to load tomorrow evening.

[Kyle M.]

Sunday I finally convinced myself to load 25 of the Lyman bullets over 27.0 grains of IMR4198. It's a bit under book but I've run across multiple people who seem to love this load for 405gr and 500gr .45-70. I shot them yesterday and I didn't feel like dragging the chronograph out, maybe next time. Just like my 405gr Lee hollow base and Lee 500gr Spitzer over the same amount of powder my Pedersoli Sharps was dead on at 50 yards. The local range only goes to 90 and it's literally next to a river like you could stumble off the edge of the range into the river. So anything past 50 yards was a little swampy since we got hammered with rain for 3 days straight a week ago. The first 50 yards of the range is concrete/gravel, after that it's uneven grass, dirt, and mud.

Someone was nice enough to leave a 5 gallon plastic bucket on a wooden post so after I finished my test target I spent my time shooting that. I really need some shooting sticks or something. This rifle is heavy!

[wade]

which lyman 457125 has a smaller nose diameter ,the newer version is to big must be a slip fit into the muzzle of my shiloh if it engraves the nose its two big,