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Thread: Questions on basic theory and technique of paper patching.

  1. #41
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I am puzzled by this also. You say that the rifle is punishing with full house 130gr loads, but you enjoy the lesser recoil with the PP boolits? maybe I missed something but you need to be pushing these boolits as fast as copper jacketed boolits, thats the whole idea of PP rolling. Now if you are already at max pressure, dont worry with going any further and being unsafe.
    Large patch fragments are not good. That little bit of hold that the patch has as it unwraps, can throw your boolits in a spiral like 303guy says.
    If you are still using the 100% cotton velum, lose it. Try green bar printer paper. I'm pretty sure that the boolit fairy sprinkles magic dust on the factory where this stuff is made, because it seems like every body ends up with a winning combination with this stuff. If you dont have access to any, shoot me a PM with your address and I will mail you some (I have a lifetime supply). I started out with velum but my opinion is that it is too strong for use with boolits and I had better luck with almost any other paper, except walmart receipt paper.
    I am very impressed with your powder selection! I wish I had that many options! It seems like that IMR4350 would be a good one to try IMHO.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  2. #42
    Boolit Grand Master popper's Avatar
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    Recently acquired a box of GC boolits (30-30). After reading all I can find about GC, I have a question. Has anyone attempted to mix the ingredients of paper (or some other filler) with lube to ease application to boolits? The purpose of GC seems to be to reduce leading. The purpose of paper GC seems to be 1) match boolit to bore. 2) as paper does not 'plate' to steel like lead does or melt at low temp, it reduces leading. 3) as paper is abrasive (wood pulp and clay) it cleans the barrel.
    I've heard of some using C-O-W and a wad for a GC. To my wayof thinking, a filled hard lube would solve a lot of problems.

  3. #43
    Boolit Master




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    Cool mod to that mold Gear!
    You can miss fast & you can miss a lot, but only hits count.

  4. #44
    Boolit Grand Master

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    Hey there Popper, welcome to the best source of info on the web!
    You should know that a gas check does exactly that and nothing else, it stops gas from cutting around the boolit, because copper has a higher melting temperature than lead does. Leading is not caused by abrasion! leading is caused by gas cutting and vaporizing the boolit on contact. Not jumping your bones, but of all the things I have learned this year, that has been the most useful. PP serves the same purpose but eliminates the need for expensive lube and gas check and theoretically has no speed limitation. Just mixing fiber into your lube will get you some small amount of the polishing properties of paper, but you will lose the amazing fire repellent qualities that a paper jacket possesses, and you will probably hinder the hydraulic cushion that a good lube provides.
    That being said, you should try it and post your findings for the shooting world to learn from. That's what it's all about here, and you never know.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  5. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by goodsteel View Post
    I am puzzled by this also. You say that the rifle is punishing with full house 130gr loads, but you enjoy the lesser recoil with the PP boolits? Yes, and it kills scopes with factory 130-gr boat-tails. I've handloaded for it before, using 4064 and IMR4350 with Speer 130-grain BT, and the recoil quickly got right up there around factory with midrange data from Speer #11. maybe I missed something but you need to be pushing these boolits as fast as copper jacketed boolits, thats the whole idea of PP rolling. Now if you are already at max pressure, dont worry with going any further and being unsafe. OK, think about it. I'm using up to 56 grains of RX22, one grain under book max for 150-grain SP jacketed with a flat base (Lyman #49). Their test barrel was two inches longer and was getting almost 2900 fps with 57 grains. My shortened Cruise Missiles weigh 149 grains with paper jacket and smear of lube. I'm figuring the pressure is OVER 50,000 CUP (NOT PSI), judging by the primer and the case head expansion. Common sense tells me that's at least 2800 fps, maybe more. The SLOW powder and soft, lubed boolit account for the manageable recoil the gun has with these loads. Also, I think the muzzle pressure is just about a low as it can get, the paper blasts out in a nice puff, going at most 15 feet in front of the muzzle. Observing the patch "puff" pattern, it's circular and rolls inward on itself like a mushroom cloud.
    Large patch fragments are not good. That little bit of hold that the patch has as it unwraps, can throw your boolits in a spiral like 303guy says. Maybe I should use Teflon spray on the boolits before wrapping like PRS mentioned. Or not wrap so far up the nose. Or use a Loverin style boolit.
    If you are still using the 100% cotton velum, lose it. Try green bar printer paper. I'm pretty sure that the boolit fairy sprinkles magic dust on the factory where this stuff is made, because it seems like every body ends up with a winning combination with this stuff. 10-4 on that, it would be an easy test. If you dont have access to any, shoot me a PM with your address and I will mail you some (I have a lifetime supply). I started out with velum but my opinion is that it is too strong for use with boolits and I had better luck with almost any other paper, except walmart receipt paper.
    I am very impressed with your powder selection! I wish I had that many options! It seems like that IMR4350 would be a good one to try IMHO.
    I tinker too much to have a limited selection, and I still have a bunch of slow powder from several high-velocity cast boolit experiments in recent years.

    Good advice all, keep it coming!

    Gear

  6. #46
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    Loaded and shot another five today, interesting results and I have a few more basic questions. I backed off to 48 grains of RX22 and added a weighed 1/2 grain of Dacron all else the same. The upshot was the confetti was now violently twisted strips, like crepe paper but spirals, and the lube that accumulated in the depressions of the grease grooves was preserved perfectly on the strips, little lines of clean lube. Obviously the Dacron helps the seal, as it often does with bare GG boolits even with gas checks.

    I know you really can't tell much from five shots, but look carefully at the first three in the string. All elliptical holes, all elliptical the same direction, all strung to the left. Then the last two round ones right together under the POA. I'm about to give up entirely on this boolit, it's been unstable at any speed in any gun in which I've fired it. If I could figure out how to keep it pointed straight ahead, I think it would group.

    Now questions. Has anyone had accuracy problems that they attributed to lube in the grooves on the outside of the patch? Also, do we think that patched bore-riders are a bust because the paper doesn't get sliced through on the nose and so they don't always shuck the patch properly?



    Gear

  7. #47
    Boolit Grand Master

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    I shoot a patched bore rider and I get perfect shreds out of green bar paper.


    Most of the original material I have read mentions the use of tapered boolits (albeit this info was probably meant for black powder.) so I see no reason that a bore rider would be a problem.
    I am pondering your dilemma though, and one of the big differences that I see between your boolits and all the others that I have seen that were successfully paper patched, is that your boolits are longer, more importantly, your patch is longer. It seems like what you want in a paper patch is just enough patch to protect the boolit long enough to get it out the bore. (ie. if you imagine that your barrel was 3 feet longer, you would want the patch to fail somewhere in that last 3 feet.) Any more or less and accuracy suffers. 303guy has a rifle that just blows a mist of fibers out the barrel and it shoots great. You shouldn't throw in the towel just yet. If you're that frustrated, load up about fifty of 'em and go to the range, cut the patch back with a knife to the next lowest GG, and see how it groups then go back one more etc.
    Also, just try a weaker paper, even printer paper will do. Shoot a few that way, with the full length patch, and then with the shortened patch.
    Wrap up some of those fifty, in both styles, without lube of any kind. (I realy dont think its hurting anything, but as far as shooting goes, I dont think its helping either.)
    If all that fails, I think you should try a different profile. You say that this "cruise missile" design has not ever worked well with any combo before? I have a question: Is this boolit longer by any amount than another boolit that shoots well out of the same rifle?
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  8. #48
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    after looking at the pics that Gear has posted of the nekid CM, I can understand GS's suggestion of cutting the patch back to the first drive band.

    the .272CM nose has to be under bore diameter. perhaps that is causing something to affect the release.

    if it was cut back to the first drive band, leave the nose bare, that may make all the difference.

    I have read guys comment on long tapered boolits where they don't want the patch to extend onto the nose beyond where it will contact the rifling

    Question: are you patching them WITH the GC, or without?
    Last edited by nanuk; 06-29-2011 at 01:24 PM. Reason: added question

  9. #49
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    Ok, here's another try. This is the same load as post #46, only this time I used green bar printer paper as was suggested. The patch was nothing but a mist of fibers coming out of the muzzle, I never even found a piece, so it's coming apart like it's supposed to, I hope not too early though. The bore is fine, no leading or fouling. I fired ten shots at the target, I don't have a clue where #8 is, glad my range backs up to a fairly large hill because that shot either missed the 4x4 backstop at 50 yards or went into an existing hole. Some of the holes are slightly elliptical still, but more randomly. 4-7/8" at 50 yards makes this by far the worst group yet, not sure what's going on. I'm not blaming the patch material, though, I think it's working fine, I get supurb accuracy from my Marlin .30-30 using paper gas checks stamped from manilla folder material, and the blast of fibers at the muzzle is similar to the way this patch is behaving.


    Gear

  10. #50
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Hi there popper. Welcome aboard!

    That's a very good idea, mixing paper pulp or wood fibre with lube. It might just make a superior lube for some applications. Filing fibre board is a good source of fine wood fibre. I would think the principle of operation would be different but it might just be bringing the best of both worlds together. I've made smooth sided cast boolits with a thick layer of lube on them with the idea that the lube would actually ride between the boolit and bore (on the nose anyway). I stiffened the lube with candle wax for the purpose. It worked. I melt it and dip the boolit noses in it. I might just try your suggestion although it won't work in my molten stuff as the fibre would separate but as a mix in beeswax consistancy lube should be great.



    ... you will probably hinder the hydraulic cushion that a good lube provides.
    You will also lose the air cussioning that paper provides - assuming that it's important or even real.

    geargnasher, you might try printer paper for its thickness. (Just in case the extra diameter is needed to hold the boolit aligned and to stop any free-bore jump).
    Last edited by 303Guy; 07-01-2011 at 05:30 AM.
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  11. #51
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    For what it's worth, I had the same idea about adding some sort of cellulose fiber to grease to make boolit lube. I thought about sanding dust, but that always contains abrasives sloughed off from the sandpaper. After a lot of thought, I decided to use baker's extra-fine cake flour. I also tried 100% whole wheat flour. I mixed them with Mystic EP bearing grease and let the flour soak up the oils until it stabilized. I was left with stuff that was just a little softer than Play-Doh, and it was a such a miserable leader in the two pistols I tried it in that I abandoned further testing. I used it in known-good loads with know-good boolits and alloy, using a proven formula and only changing the lube. I think Col. Harrison had it right when he found that there was no benefit to adding solids to GG lube, of course someone may come along and prove us both wrong, so go for it! My flour experiment was partially aimed at helping determine to what extent lube acts as a viscous fluid seal. I was trying to make Stop Leak Lube.

    Gear

  12. #52
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    for fine wood fiber, I wonder about using a fine rasp. No abrasives to slough off....

    BUT how the heck would you apply it to the whole outside surface of the boolit, where it would be needed? Oversized Lubrisizer?

  13. #53
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    Just for fun I shot five more this evening with the 266469 (cast at .268") and patched to .278" with Vellum. Five inches at 50 yards, I'm not even going to post a target. I still have some Speer 130 gr. boat tail spitzers, they get loaded next.

    Nanuk, no gas checks with any of these.

    Gear

  14. #54
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Looking at this boolit, I would suggest the possibility of insufficient nose support which could cause the boolit to tilt slightly in the bore. This might cause circular group patterns. I don't know this for a fact - just a thought and an observation.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  15. #55
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    I think I'm on to something, now. Today I loaded up five 130-grain Speer boat-tail spitzers with 52 grains of RX22 to verify the rifle and scope. That's the target on the left. 1" at 50 yards. Far from stellar, but the powder is a bit slow for the bullet, and I just seated them .010" off the lands and went with it.

    The next target is the cut-down Cruise Missile again, patched with Vellum just over the ogive like before, sized .2793", lubed with just a hint of Felix lube in the paper grooves, .002" neck tension, just enough crimp to straighten the bellmouth, same 52 grains of RX22 and Federal 210 primer, but THIS time I settled the powder and added .7cc of BPI Original shot buffer, which went about halfway up the case neck when lightly tamped. The boolit further compressed it about 1/16". Now the patch blows out in small fragments about caliber size, and the boolits no longer yaw, note the round holes in the target. I think we have a winner here.




    So, what I've learned so far about paper-patching with this particular gun and boolit:
    > Felix Lube in the patch lube grooves doesn't seem to be a problem.
    > Vellum paper works in certain situations.
    > Patching the bore-rider nose of the boolit isn't an issue as long as the paper will peel off evenly at the muzzle.
    > Twisted and cut-off tails work if you leave a knot of paper on the bottom.
    > 45-degree patch cuts can work just fine.
    > They can be loaded hot with 14 bhn alloy in small bore.
    > Wet patching with plain water worked for me in this application. I read a comment on Molly's article over at the lasc. site about using Sprite to wet patches, made the tails stay twisted better he said, I may have to try that.
    > Most importantly, how the boolit leaves the muzzle crown is key to getting accuracy. The BPI filler trick that I learned from 45 2.1 (Bob) in his HV Swede loading instructions seems to help that, as well as get the slower powders to burn more consistently.

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 07-09-2011 at 11:24 PM. Reason: mis-spelled "bullet"

  16. #56
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    I'd be ecstatic if I got those results.

    what velocity do you think you are getting?

  17. #57
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    I'm guessing around 2650 to 2700 fps. It's hard to judge with the filler, it raises the pressure the equivalent of about what three grains of powder would. Might be closer to 2750.

    Gear

  18. #58
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    2750fps with a boolit in the 150gr range, is right up there with factory loads.

    if you can get consistant accuracy from that, you'd have a long range killer for sure

  19. #59
    Boolit Master

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    That is why we paper patch.

  20. #60
    Boolit Man Lonerider's Avatar
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    AS mentioned in another thread, I am just now inching my way down the 'roll you own' trail. This has be a good thread for me to read also.

    For me, I will be shooting bullets cast from Bruce's 462-465 GC mould in my guide gun.

    I have read Paul Matthews book The Paper Jacked several times. I agree, I think this would be a good sticky.

    Lonerider

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check