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Thread: Questions on basic theory and technique of paper patching.

  1. #21
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    Ok, more results, moving it out to 50 yards. I'm keeping my fingers crossed on this one. First two for scope adjustment and then a group of three, then five more (red circles) for a group with the charge upped two grains. Groups are 1-3/4" and 1-7/8", respectively. At least the holes are still round, that's sort of an accomplishment in itself for the Cruise Missile at 180,000 rpm.

    Interesting thing, the confetti pieces were much larger than from the first group I shot yesterday evening, not sure if the barrel is just beginning to smooth up or what. I don't know how visible it is in the pics, but there are perfect little slits in the paper where the driving bands were cut by the rifling, pretty neat. Do any of you notice trends with accuracy and the condition of the confetti? Small pieces better? Any difference?

    Gear

  2. #22
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    What I did after fire-lapping and polishing the bore was to develop a load that fully confetied the patch then loaded up a batch of those and headed into the field and they shot great! I've pulled off this stunt twice now. I would say you need more velocity and powder charge. But - twice in a row is not scientific proof! Give it a try anyway. If that principle works for you also then it will start to look like it might be fact.

    Your latest groups look to me like they are shooting in a circle which could indicate a spiralling boolit path and a patch that is not confetied could conceivably cause that. I have little or no way of finding out but you do so it would be interesting to se what results you get.

    P.S. I do hope you will be competing in the postal competition.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  3. #23
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    I sure hope to, and appreciate the encouragement and great info all of you are providing, this is a lot of fun thanks to all the threads and posts packed full of good information. I have about a hundred good boolits and 70 "match" grade, +/-.2-grain sorted ones, I hope that will be enough to at least get a load that will shoot five in a row on a 4x8 sheet of plywood at 200 yards in a month!


    Keep in mind this is a 5-1/2 lb "Featherweight" Winchester, the barrel is about the size of a .270 cartridge body at the muzzle and has always had a tendency to spiral groups as the barrel heats up with jacketed. That and murder scopes. This thing is absolutely punishing to shoot with full-house 130-grain jacketed, but very pleasant with these PPCB and the slow powder. I'm going to roll some more tomorrow with better boolits than I used so far (I was using culls for the initial experiment), and I'll also experiment with increases in powder charge. Based upon case volume and jacketed pressure data I have room for at least five more grains, we'll see what that does to the confetti and groups as I increase incrementally.

    I'll keep posting as I get time to shoot.

    Gear

  4. #24
    Boolit Master ktw's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Interesting thing, the confetti pieces were much larger than from the first group I shot yesterday evening, not sure if the barrel is just beginning to smooth up or what.
    You didn't say what the as-cast diameter of the bullet is. I would expect the post shot patch pieces to be larger with a sub-bore diameter bullet/thicker wrap and smaller with a larger bullet/thinner wrap.

    The pieces you are getting are larger than I normally see when smokeless paper patching in my 38-55 (@1800 fps). I have seen much larger pieces when shooting black powder paper patch (bullets patched to bore rather than groove diameter and lower muzzle velocity doing less violence to the patch at release).

    -ktw

  5. #25
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    KTW, sorry, it's buried in the minutia of my original post, .272" for the boolits as-cast and the bore is just a couple of ten-thousandths over .270", or what's left of the bore after the factory cut the grooves. Typical of Winchester barrels the lands are very narrow. I haven't peeled a final sized boolit to see if the core is getting sized down much with the paper, but that could cause the failure to completely shred the patches if it's going under groove after sizing and seating.

    Gear

  6. #26
    Boolit Master nanuk's Avatar
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    Good stuff here


  7. #27
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Good stuff here
    Yes!

    How well does (or doesn't) the unsized patched boolit fit the chamber and unsized case neck?

    I have mentioned somewhere that I use a guage that is set from the shoulder position in the chamber to some reference point on the back of the action. If the boolit chambers to the base of neck position with just a slight nudge then all's good to go. If it goes in too far then I make it larger somehow and if it doesn't chamber all the way I have to make it smaller. So I measure two things; The chambering depth of the boolit and the fit in the case mouth.

    Disclamer - My number of samples are not large enough to declare a scientific fact!
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-24-2011 at 02:25 AM.
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  8. #28
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    The sized, patched boolit is a snug slip-fit into a fired and slightly belled case mouth, not much lateral wobble but not enough tension to hold it there securely. I wonder, if I honed my sizing die .001" and sized the neck less if I wouldn't be better off. It might be enough to retain the boolit. I'm going to order a Lee Collet sizing die for this, and also a straightline seating die to give me some more options playing with case neck tension and chamber neck fit. In the meantime, testing goes on....

    Gear

  9. #29
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Exactly the same as my 1902 LE I*. That's how I'm planning on shooting it in the postal. For field use I will probably slightly size the neck or perhaps even make the boolit base a little larger. Most of my cases have a dough-nut at the neck shoulder junction. Perfect for seating a loose fitting boolit against. I'm contemplating enlarging the portion of my two-diameter sizer to remove the taper over the seating portion of the shank. That would allow a patched boolit seat tight enough.
    Last edited by 303Guy; 06-27-2011 at 02:12 AM.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  10. #30
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    Geargnasher has struck again. I forgot I had an old .270 sizer die that I had honed the base out of for a .45 Colt neck-sizer, tried to hone the neck on this one a bit but Lee, as per usual, made the neck portion so small that I couldn't lap it the required nine thousandths without hourglassing it too much. The RCBS FL sizer gets the necks to .303" OD, needed .3055" with these Remington cases. Then it occured to me, I have a couple of Lee .30-'06 EZ-Expander spuds in the spare parts bin, having been replaced in service with .303 British expanders (.3105" diameter on the Lee British die sets, perfect for cast in .30-30 and .30-'06!), so I took one of the .307" ones and turned it down to .2805", stuck it in a brand-new, extra .30-'06 sizer die body that needed a home, and expanded my RCBS-sized cases to .3055, giving me .001" tension on my .2795" boolits.

    I also discovered I can seat these boolits out a little more to make firm contact with the lands with the PP bore-riding portion, they won't feed from the mag but I don't really care.

    I worked up five at 54 grains, five at 55 grains, and five at 56 grains RX22, and five at 56 grains of H1000 just for grins.

    Tomorrow we'll see how they shoot.

    Gear

  11. #31
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    Hmmmph. Fliers. Every group (50 yards, benched) had one, and some holes were elliptical. 56 grains of RX22 started to crater the primers, extraction normal but I'm not going any higher there. Good confetti and no leading, clean chamber, cases, throat and barrel, so the mechanics of the loads are working, just accuracy and stability isn't quite there yet.

    What do you guys think I should try next? I'm thinking of exploring the H1000 some more, maybe going down a couple of grains and using some BPI Original filler in slight compression under the boolit. Also, I'm considering dropping back to about 52 grains of RX22 and using a tuft of Dacron.



    Gear

  12. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by geargnasher View Post
    Hmmmph. Fliers. Every group (50 yards, benched) had one, and some holes were elliptical. 56 grains of RX22 started to crater the primers, extraction normal but I'm not going any higher there. Good confetti and no leading, clean chamber, cases, throat and barrel, so the mechanics of the loads are working, just accuracy and stability isn't quite there yet.

    What do you guys think I should try next? I'm thinking of exploring the H1000 some more, maybe going down a couple of grains and using some BPI Original filler in slight compression under the boolit. Also, I'm considering dropping back to about 52 grains of RX22 and using a tuft of Dacron.



    Gear
    When I see one tip in the group, I suspect barrel heating, or the boolit being undersized just a hair.
    The solid soft lead bullet is undoubtably the best and most satisfactory expanding bullet that has ever been designed. It invariably mushrooms perfectly, and never breaks up. With the metal base that is essential for velocities of 2000 f.s. and upwards to protect the naked base, these metal-based soft lead bullets are splendid.
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  13. #33
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    Quite possible. It was 104* at the range, and though the strings were fired about 20 minutes apart, after I fired the last group (on the top), the end of the barrel would sizzle spit. I usually don't shoot under these conditions, and when I have, the groups blew due to lube issues. Even my revolvers start flinging boolits wide on a really hot day. Not having done a lot of paper patching in the past, I don't know what to expect really as far as velocity, alloy, patch lube, and heat play together, but it makes sense that heat could be a lot of the issue.

    I've been over this gun pretty thoroughly in the past, relieving the forearm and properly glass bedding the action, and I did re-torque the action and scope screws just to be sure. This alloy is from the modified WW group buy year before last, and air-cooled these boolits are around 14 bhn. With these loads whizzing them along at what I estimate to be at least 2800 fps with the hottest of my RX22 loads the alloy might be doing all it can do. With the fliers I'm not too confident to stick the chrony in front of it just yet, and the confetti confuses it at anything closer than ten feet.

    Gear
    Last edited by geargnasher; 06-27-2011 at 01:35 AM.

  14. #34
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    Gear,

    Most likely @ 2800 fps, your pressure is close to 50,000 psi which is very sufficient to expand the CB, starting at the base forward, to your groove diameter. Therefore, I'd recommend you try dropping your final sizing diameter to 0.276"D to allow the PPCB to enter the forcing cone without PP tearing. Place PP against forcing cone, i.e PPCB cannot tolerate jumping to forcing cone (NRA comment). Once the powder ignites, pressure build-up will very quickly expand CB to fit your groove diameter as it travels to the muzzle. Also, try spraying PPCB with dry film Teflon spray first before final sizing with Alox or LBT or other lube. These are simple things to do until your rifle tells you what it likes. Hope this helps.

    Best regards,

    CJR
    Last edited by CJR; 06-27-2011 at 09:22 AM. Reason: typo

  15. #35
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    Geargnasher,

    First, congratulations on your PP success as shown in your photos! Much great info and advise has already been posted, but I would like to comment on alloy hardness. I found in my experimentations that I could get by with a semi-soft alloy up to around 2,500 fps (168 grain bullet in a 30-06), but that accuracy degraded around this point unless a harder alloy was used. For velocities around 2,800 fps I had to go to a hard alloy around WW hardness for accuracy not to degrade. If you intend to hunt with your newly found craft, using a bit harder boolit, rather than a softer boolit is a bit safer, I think. Expansion vs. velocity seems to be an exponential function rather than linear such that with a moderate increase in velocity the boolit will expand alot more. You certainly do not want a boolit to disintegrate on a large bone on your deer or elk.

  16. #36
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    I would try some IMR powders. My groups tightened immediately when I started using them. Also, I agree with Sharps that you should experiment with alloy hardness. I was using an alloy that was 30% tin 70% pb and I managed to get good groups.

    But when I changed the alloy to a 2.5%sn/2.5%antimony/95%pb my groups started suffering much like yours are. (see the two groups on the right. The ones on the left are gas check boolits.)

    I'm not saying that tin percentage has a magic effect on PP boolits, I'm saying that hardness matters. This is what I was talking about earlier, when I mentioned getting the tension of the paper, between the boolit and the barrel, just right. You may need a harder boolit or you may need a softer boolit. you might try sizing the boolit to just .001-.0015 over bore diameter, thereby faking a softer boolit, (ie. the boolit cant press the paper into the barrel as hard.) Or you might add some linotype to the stream to produce a harder boolit (ie. the boolit presses the paper into the barrel wall harder than before.)
    Just some thoughts.
    Precision in the wrong place is only a placebo.

  17. #37
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    Gear, this is a great thread... Nice experiment.

  18. #38
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    Well, I AM using a certified 4%Sb/2%Sn/.25%As/93.75%Pb alloy, a shade over 14 bhn, and .0015" over bore diameter after sizing the patch (I peeled one and measured), and the boolits are seated to engrave the entire nose and the leading edge of the first band in the rifling, the second band touches the throat leaving a shiny ring in the paper after chambering, so it seems to fit pretty well as far as I know how at this point.

    Interesting thoughts on paper tension, that seems to be key. I'm thinking that the alloy must be springy enough to maintain expansive tension under pressure without just shredding the paper against the barrel steel, tough enough to hold the rifling and not slump at nose or base, and soft enough engrave without shearing off slivers of lead.

    If you'll look closely at the confetti, the bore-riding nose can be seen on the patches, the little brown marks from the rifling just pressing in the paper slightly. The four marks seem even on all the patches I recovered, indicating a straight start with no slumping. The lands cut little dashed slits on the driving bands just on the leading edge, again it seems very consistent all the way around the boolit. I recovered a few out the log I was shooting into, only about the last half of the boolit remained as the nose was mushroomed into oblivion. I was able to recover three engraving marks and two decent bases, there was no evidence of cratering or riveting of the GC shank so the knot of paper fromt he tail twist/trim must have been doing it's job as a plug.

    I think I may be just pushing them too fast for the hardness. Only one way to find out! I have some IMR4831, H4831, Retumbo, H1000, RX22, H4350, IMR 4350, IMR4064, IMR3031 and some faster. Locally I can get anything IMR, Hodgdon, Alliant, or Winchester makes, but not Accurate or Ramshot. Based upon what I've read so far, it seems that maybe I'd better get the velocity down below 2500 fps with this alloy, or go to water-quenched 50/50 wheel weights/pure. No matter the velocity or pressure so far, the confetti looks about the same, and based on the way it looks I think the paper I'm using is ok for the application. Ya'll please keep me straight here if I've made any newbie assumptions! I know my way around regular cast boolits pretty well, and I've had some pretty darn good results with high-velocity cast in other calibers, but I'm trying to carry as little of that knowledge over to PP as I can so I don't get into ass-uption troubles.

    Thanks for the pics, Goodsteel, your too-soft groups look a lot like mine.

    Gear

  19. #39
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    It just occured to me, those of you who may not be familiar with Oldfeller's "Cruise Missile" don't know what the nose looks like under the paper. I'm using a Midsouth mould from a couple of years ago, it is one of the famous "oversized" ones that won't chamber properly in a Swedish Mauser because the nose is too fat. The bands on mine are .272" and the nose about .264". I cut down my mould to cast a shorter, gas-checked boolit in my Swedes, and it didn't help this boolit's somewhat notorious keyholing tendencies at all. Both of my Swedes shoot them sideways.

    I'm using the short version with no check in my .270.







    Gear

  20. #40
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    I missed something - 2800fps and large patch fragments from the bore ride section! I only get patch fragments that size with subsonic (I think) test loads with pretty low chamber pressures. I would think that as that patch comes away from the boolit it would upset its stability but even so, how does a piece of patch that large survive the 'blast' as it encounters air at the muzze?

    A method of developing loads I have used is to increase the powder charge untill those large pieces dissappear. I wonder what could be different in this case?
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check