What the heck happened here???

[Doc Highwall]

WildmanJack, I have read that Steve Garvy after he anneals his cases runs them through his sizer first before reloading them, maybe this will help some also.

[WildmanJack]

Hmmm, that's not a bad idea Doc. May try that after I fire those shells a few more times.. No more frequent annealing though, that's for sure...
Jack

[Von Gruff]

Jack, as far as annealing the cases goes, by the time you see colour in a darkened room they have been heated way past the required heat. I anneal after polishing and in a bright room so that the first sign of colour is a light blue rainbow type of colous and this is sufficient to do the job. I use a depp walled socket on a bolt cut to length so that the three sizes of cases I work with all have the same OAL when in the drill


I tip them into a steel bowel to air cool but they are only heated enough to do the job.



Annealing certainly dose have some benefits so long as it is not overdone. Overdone pertains to the heat rather than the frequency.

I anneal every 5th firing but have also heard of some of the 0ne K shooters that anneal every load for consistant release. Have heard of up to a hundred firings from cases and I have over 40 from some older 7x57 cases I have. Mind you I have a custom chamber and only neck size with minimal caseworking.

Von Gruff.

[Euan]

Mr Gruff; Thats a great wee annealing set up, and I agree about the 1st sign of colour.
Cheers Euan.

[WildmanJack]

Gruff,
Thanks, that's the way I used to do it. Then I read some more and the article said to heat till you just see a maroon color and then drop the brass. I think I'll go back to my old way. By the way, that is a pretty cool set up you have there...
Jack

[azcruiser]

165 GR. SIE SPBT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 3.300" 49.0 2768 50,500 PSI 52.0 2888 57,200 PSI
168 GR. HDY HPBT IMR IMR 4895 .308" 3.230" 48.0 2719 49,900 PSI 51.2 2859 58,200 PSI
168 GR. HDY HPBT Hodgdon H4895 .308" 3.230" 43.0 2574 41,200 CUP 47.5 2789 50,000 CUP
Guess the bullet could make a difference the loads are from Hodgdon page

[Four Fingers of Death]

30/06 brass is so cheap, I have never bothered annealing any of it. In fact I have never really bothered annealing any brass. I give it the flick, but I am a bit of a sucker when it comes to buying brass, I have bucketloads of everyhting I load.

[Char-Gar]

I am 50 years deep into the 30-06 round and have yet to anneal a case. They go many, many round of neck sizing before they get so work hard, they want to split at the necks. If one or two split at the neck I deep 6 the entire batch and go again.

With cast bullets, neck sized 30-06 cases are almost everlasting.

I don't know where you got the notion that cases needed to be annealed, but now you have learn by experience not to do that again.

The best money you can spend is on a Wilson case gauge. It will will help you adjust your die for correct headspace and tell you when to trim and how much.

Caveat...Lot of folks on gun boards that are long on theory and short on experience.

[WildmanJack]

Chargar,
50 years !!!! Ok I guess you have a heck of a lot more experience than I do. I started annealing to prevent the work hardening of the shells. I don't always shoot cast in my .30-06. I am trying to develop an accurate round to shoot out to 800 plus yards. It has been my understanding that continually reloading bottle neck shells, or any shells for that matter will eventually work harden them. So doing as much reading as I can about reloading for a rifle I just took it for granted that I should anneal after a number of reloads on the same shell.

I wish I could be like Four Fingers of Death and have as much brass as I want, but I can't so I reload the same shells over and over. After my obvious screw up I have stopped annealing as much as I was, but am always open to learn as much as I can about reloading and the necessity of annealing.

I kn ow I have a to to learn about reloading and as I said, I am open to any and all education so I will take your advise as well as the advise of the other posters and go from there. Thanks so much for your input..
Jack

[Von Gruff]

This is about the most instructive piece on annealing.

http://www.6mmbr.com/annealing.html

Von Gruff.

[WildmanJack]

Thanks Von Gruff, i'll read it right now...
Jack

[Four Fingers of Death]

Wildman, I'm an old fart and if you hang around long enough you end up with a lot of brass nott to mention a lot of other junk as well, lol!).

[Char-Gar]

Wildman.. After a while, reloaded brass will work harden to the point the case necks split and bullet tension will become an issue.

But, that is many, many reloads down the road from where you are now. Every batch of brass, reloading die and rifle chamber is different so it is impossible to say when the brass work hardens to the point it it becoming an issue.

I will just say I have reloaded 30-06 brass 30 to 50 times before a neck split. By that time I am ready for a new batch of brass.

There is still lots of GI 30-06 brass out there for very little money.

I don't use the same brass for jacketed bullet loads as I do for cast bullet loads. I have separate batches. My cast brass is Lake City 54 and my jacketed brass is Winchester. I use a lot of 100 divided into two batches of 50 over and over again until it dies. That take a very long time.

[WildmanJack]

Chargar,
Thanks for that info. I was thinking of splitting my brass into jacketed and cast, Just never got around to doing it. I guess this is probably as good a time as any. They i'll keep a count on how many times I reload a particular round.. Sure hope I get at least 30 or 40 out of them...
Jack

[Four Fingers of Death]

I'm no expert on annealing as I pointed out before, but I was taught that the base of the case should be in a bath of water to stop it softening and once the necks reached temperature, they were to be tipped over into the water to prevent the heat from effecting the base.

If heated in a holder such as the socket set up above and allowed to air cool wouldn't that soften the whole case?

[WildmanJack]

Four Fingers,
I have a really good friend that is a metallurgist, and I spoke to him about annealing. He told me that the brass needs to cool slowly to properly anneal not quickly as in the water bath scenario. So I haven't used that. I understand about keeping the bases cool, and I think that the holder I use pretty much acts as a heat sink and prevents the base from getting too hot. I might be way off here, and if I am, I will stand corrected. But I'm always open to an education!!
Jack

[Four Fingers of Death]

I don't know either way, as I haven't tried it. Some of the guys here use milsup clips, dunk the case mouths of all 5 cases held in the clip in molten lead, allow to heat for awhile (holding onto clip with fingers to ensure the base doesn't get too hot), then dump the lot into a bucket of water and pick up another 5 cases in a clip and so on and so on. I think I will just keep doing what I have been doing and throwing them in the trash can when they look a bit sus.

[felix]

The product of heat and time is the key to proper anneal. Brass, unlike steel, will stop annealing on a dime when the product falls short of a certain product value, and also a certain temperature taken by itself. For example, if the case holder never gets above 200 degrees, then the holder is an excellent heat sink. If the holder is set at -20 degrees upon each individual application, then the anneal product value will have to compensate for any anneal to take place, and most especially counting the product amount needed to anneal the case as expected. Because of this problem, there are few, if any, BR shooters who anneal for their target gun. Typically, they would round can the lot after only 10 firings. ... felix

[Char-Gar]

Four Fingers... As above, I am not a big annealer. I can recall two cases where I did so.

1. In the mid-60s, I had (and still have) a single shot rifle in 218 Mashburn Bee. When the standard Bee case was fired, it split at the shoulder 100 % of the time. I did the old stand them in water, heat the necks with a propane torch and tip them over into the water things, and I got no more case splits. The shoulders were soft enough to fire form without splitting. The cases were fired many times with no problems.

2. About 5 years ago I bought a lot of NOS (late 1920s) Winchester 30-40 Krag brass. A few split the necks when fired. They had hardened with age. I annealed the necks as above and the cases are still in service.

So that is about all I know about annealing and the old way, has cured all of my problems. But the annealing addressed real problems not theoretical or potential problems.

There are so many folks on this board trying to cure things that have never happens and likely not to happen. The new guys gets all twisted up with this stuff...pity!

[Pirate69]

This is from The Art and Science of Annealing. Since over annealing was mentioned, I thought it may be useful. No expert by any means.


"The critical time and temperature at which the grain structure reforms into something suitable for case necks is 662 degrees (F) for some 15 minutes. A higher temperature, say from 750 to 800 degrees, will do the same job in a few seconds. If brass is allowed to reach temperatures higher than this (regardless of the time), it will be made irretrievably and irrevocably too soft."