High velocity with usable accuracy? You decide!

[Bullshop]

These targets were perforated at 100 yards with the newish and littlest NOE design, the copy of the Lyman 225107 a 40gn fngc boolit.
This little boolit seems to like to go fast for sure. I am not sure if its the boolit design, or the Lotak lube, or the 221 Fireball cartridge or a combination of all but I am getting some impressive numbers on the Ohler 35 and at least decent usable accuracy.
The 5 shots on the rabbit target are the last 5 of 20 before cleaning. Each hole has the number of its shot and its velocity.
The target on the dirty plate is the first 5 from a clean barrel.
The target at right is a conglomerate of several targets including the load work up with two different powders.
The average velocity for the two targets at left is slightly over 3640 fps.
Maybe some tweaking can be done to tighten the groups a bit and I intend to try.
At this velocity the barrel looks absolutely clean and lead free using Lotak soft lube. It cleans with a couple passes with a wet brush then a couple dry patches.
This velocity is far beyond anything I have ever gotten previously with boolits and still have any semblance of accuracy.
So I will let you decide, is this usable accuracy. For me the answer is yes. I can use this level of accuracy to about 200 yards and that covers the greatest percentage of all my shooting.

[giz189]

That is pretty cool! What alloy were you shooting Bullshop?

[Blammer]

that's smokin!

For a big game caliber I'd call that usable accuracy. For a varmint caliber I'd also say it's usable accuracy, so when I miss the rabbit I can say it's the boolits fault and not feel like I'm a liar.

[Bass Ackward]

In the old days, 22s were made from 22LR casings and these would not make the target from the Swift at 3600 + fps.

I also have trouble here at 3250 fps with vapor trails during high humidity that just does terrible things to groups.

So I would say that is good for this time of year. I wonder what happens when it cools down?

[Bullshop]

The alloy was range scrap cast hot-N-fast and quenched from the mold.
Since the little buggers are too small to test I will guess the hardness to be between 20 to 24 BHN

Yea Blammer there will be a few misses at 200 yards out of every 100 shots. Truth is I get those even with the most accurate ammo
Just as with any high intensity cartridge firing boolits or bullets it wants to be cleaned after 20 shots or the wanderers wander farther.
I am working on a pre-lube dip that might help tighten groups a bit. The idea is to dip the boolits with a tumble type lube so the lube that fills the grooves to keep them from collapsing will release more uniformly at the muzzle.
I am not really ready to announce the product yet. It needs more testing. Hopefully it will serve as a tumble lube alone for lower pressure loads. Time will tell.

[Bullshop]

BA
Good to see ya here Friend.
What area are you thinking when you say cooler? Yesterday we were somewhere about in the high 40s and low 50s.
If you mean like below zero we both know what that will do. I hope my idea of a pre-lube dip might help that too.

[Centaur 1]

The alloy was range scrap cast hot-N-fast and quenched from the mold.
Since the little buggers are too small to test I will guess the hardness to be between 20 to 24 BHN

I am working on a pre-lube dip that might help tighten groups a bit. The idea is to dip the boolits with a tumble type lube so the lube that fills the grooves to keep them from collapsing will release more uniformly at the muzzle.

Bullshop, I use RD's technique for dip lubing, but with one twist. He says to spray the boolits and crimp the gc with a Lee sizing die. Then he says to dip in Alox and stand them up on wax paper. The dipping process leaves a blob of lube around the base of the boolit. After the lube is hard I push the boolits back through the sizing die base first. Instead of the die wiping the excess lube from the base of the boolit like it does when inserted nose first, when you push it through base first the sizing die forces all of that excess lube into the grooves. This method really packs the grooves with lube.

[Bullshop]

The idea on the pre lube I was referring to is to create a non stick surface in the lube grooves. Then lube as normally in a lubrisizer to fill the grooves.
This in theory any way should help the conventional lube to completely release from the boolit at exit from the muzzle much as a paper patch does. That should help eliminate any out of balance boolits in flight due to un-uniform lube release.
Either it all needs to stay on the boolit or all fly off at the same point.
At any rate its is something I am working with and if successful will add it to our product list.

[MT Gianni]

I would call it usable accuracy from a bench Dan. It is pretty amazing to scoot them along that fast. Is there a real advantage in a rabbit, fox or coyote gun at 200 yards with that speed or are you better off with a moa load @ 2200 fps? That is what you need to find out. I know you can read the yardage and figure the trajectory.

[Bullshop]

The only real advantage to having the speed is blowing up water filled containers at 100 yards. I love the way my girls squeal when they do that.
I was on the search for accuracy but when I started to get the speed I was kinda side tracked to see where that would go.
Its kinda given me a whole new perspective on what top end really is with boolits.
Its also started me thinking allot about lubes too. We see countless posts about lubes that dont lead but there is more to it than that. We still want to hit too. Still though at 3640 fps and no sign of leading is pushing the top end envelope in that regard.
There are lots of folks looking for and finding accuracy at that 2200 fps you mentioned but how many are looking in the 3500 fps area? I am not trying to find THE LOAD for this rifle I am more interested in plowing new ground and work in an area outside the norm. That is how we here at CB have raised the bar on performance and available cutting edge information. We use to look to other sources for that information but they are no longer on the edge and they're not even keeping up as evidenced by the newest Lyman offering.
What its really about is an life long appetite for this knowledge but the pastures are grazed off so for more still one must seek new pasture. I think I have found a lush green oasis that I will feed on for awhile. I may not fly like an SST but neither did Orville and Wilbur.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

Those are fine targets for those size targets out to 100 yards or maybe a tad farther. Would be fine for rabbits, perhaps rock or wood chucks and even coyotes on call.

However, most of my shooting with the smaller .22 CFs (.22 Hornet, .222 and .223) are on much smaller targets such as rock or California ground squiirels, red diggers and Belding ground squirrels. The larger rock squirrel (we call then "grey diggers") and red diggers will give you a target of about 2 x 6". The belding ground squirrels are much smaller giving a target of 1 x 4" at most. We shoot these out to 300 yards. As you can see your loads are not sufficiently accurate for that.

With cast bullets in my .22 CFs I find a 1 1/2 moa load realisticly limits me to 150 yards on the larger squirrels and 100 yards on the smaller ones. If the load will put 80% of its shots in less than 1 moa then I can stretch that to 200 yards on the larger quirrels and still do well to 150 yards on the smaller beldings. I've learned to settle for a lot less velocity and much better accuracy with cast bullets. Also we will shoot upwards of 200 + shots on a decent walk about shooting the squirrels so cleaning the bore every 20 shots or so is not feasable.

Your accuracy at that velocity is pretty darn good band may be sufficient for your needs. However those loads are lacking in accuracy for my needs. "Success" just depends on the intended use.

Larry Gibson

[leftiye]

Not leaving grey smoke trails as the boolit evaporates is purty good at that velocity. I doubt you'd know if you hit one of those squirrels any way, they'd just dissapear (try to eat that). An yup, I'm still messing with 2200 fps about.

[Bass Ackward]

The idea on the pre lube I was referring to is to create a non stick surface in the lube grooves.

Borrow the Pam from the wife. With all the assistants that you have around the place, I would recommend that you get an artist's detail paintbrush and have the interested one paint the Pam in just the grooves.

If you spray it on, it may give you handling fits.

It's better to simply design the bullet with shallow, gentle sloping lube grooves. Not only making it easy to spin off, but easier for it to climb to the bore surface where it can work. But you can't do that for 22s I know.

It will work as you intend.

[MtGun44]

Amazing results! Please explain the lube, I am not familiar with it, clearly it is an
impressive lube.

Bill

[Bret4207]

Dan, anything over 3k with any kind of accuracy is way beyond what 99.9% of people can produce. Good on you! I think you're on the cutting edge here.

[44man]

I see one problem! Your should use a clean plate, not the one you ate S.O.A.S. from.

[WyomingWhitetail]

well it looks to me like if you were shooting rabbits with that gun you would have 5 dead rabbits. what you are doing is truly amazing in the world of boolits. As soon as a get a M die ill be starting on loads for the 219 zipper but my goals are only 2300+ fps and minute of prairie dog out to 200 yards. Very interested in where you take this from here so please keep us all updated.

[Larry Gibson]

Bullshop

One question; have you shot test groups at perhaps 150 and 200 yards to check the linear dispersion of the groups?

Larry Gibson

[leadman]

A Bore Snake will probably work real well for carrying in the field. I use them at the range also dry just to get the looser fouling out of the bore.

In my K-Hornet and 223 I can't get that level of velocity with the Lyman 44gr, but can get over 3,000 fps with similar accuracy.

Just to put your level of velocity in perspective I had factory Federal frangible bullets not make the target at 200 yards, just a puff of smoke past 100 yards.

Keep up the fun.

[MT Gianni]

Dan I am in total agreement as to keeping on the project. I would like to see what the speed tops out at and if you get accuracy to go with it wow. This is already in the experimental ground that Pope, Louverin, Elmer and many of our revered bullet pioneers walked in. You cannot achieve without trying.