Boys, keep it civil.
This thread has been very informative with lots of good stuff so far. If you cannot keep your comments civil I will wade in using the edit and delete key. No finger pointing or name calling, it is not in keeping with the spirit of our community here.
My Mother always told me when I was growing up; "If you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all". We should all listen to my Mother's advice.
"The worst wheel of the cart makes the most noise." - Benjamin Franklin
"To compel a man to subsidize with his taxes the propagation of ideas which he disbelieves and abhors is sinful and tyrannical." - Thomas Jefferson
Sounds cool to me.Originally Posted by Dean D.
You do know that the VAST majority of Lithgow made SMLE's imported into the USA where John Jovino imports , of which good Old JJ assembled the vast majority stateside...and those guns have not the best quality fit & finish due to those loads of parts he assembled into rifles.
Lithgow made and assembled SMLE's have had the best reputation of them all for accuracy...right down to the Heavy barreled SMLE's they produced for serious iron & optical sight use.
The time I spent in the army where I had to deal with manual wonks always made me laugh. Those were the guys that only knew what they read or what they were instructed to read with little practical on hands experiance.
Which guy would you trust to work on your car...the guy writing repair manuals for 20 years or the guy having 20 years doing the actual repair work.... I know which one I'd choose from experiance since the manuals don't always do the "math" so to speak.
I'd choose a craftsman who read the manuals, shadetree gunsmithing is as dangerous as shadetree auto mechanics.
Now back to the topic of the Bolt heads.
Best resource on the Enfield threads.
http://freespace.virgin.net/j.frankl...read-table.htmThe "Enfield Thread Form" appears not to be consistent, varying between different examples of threads per inch. The forms have been established as far as possible. This work was carried out by the MoD Pattern Room. At the moment there is no intention of publishing the forms, at least not until they have been established beyond reasonable doubt.
Not all the threads shown below are "Enfield". With the SMLE Mark VI, came the use of "British Association" threads or BA as they are known. Although now obsolete, tooling for BA threads can still be obtained. Some threads on Enfield rifles are in fact Whitworth form, ie. BSW and BSF.
If the thread pattern of the bolt head shank doesn't match the thread pattern of the bolt body then excessive wear will result.
Unlike a screw or bolt screwed down tightly and meant simply to hold something in place, the threaded shank of the bolt head is intended to move freely back and forth as the bolt is rotated into or out of battery. The threaded shank is a bearing surface and so is the internally threaded surface of the bolt body.
A guy whom writes the manuals and never hit a lick of it with his hands is a "craftsman" ?. Have you ever worked with a book smart fellow like that doing heavy mechanical work ?. I have with more than a few and to a man they could talk the talk..but hand them the tools of the trade and they could'nt even sqaure a bracket let alone plum a rail. I've had prints so way off that in talking to the "engineer" he insisted it was so as written. Got him in th efield and lo and behold.... he had to not only eat crow he could'nt figure out how to rectify his booksmart blockage...I had to do it for him. The real world is far off different from a guy behind a desk "writing manuals".
I started making a bolt head from a piece of 41-40. The only trick I could see was to get the thread start in the right place to which end I was going to thrad the 'blank before cutting away the exess material. Cutting away the exess material would have been the hardest part.
Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)
''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''
At present, I have three different Bolt-Heads and all of them will screw into my existing bolt easy enough; and with about the same feel and turn beyond top-dead-center so I take it the thread pattern is correct for what I need.
I didn't realize that asking a couple of questions would ignite such a difference of opinions. Kind of makes me glad I'm ignorant when it comes to Lee Enfield specifics.
Is there a way that a guy can measure for himself, the thread pitch and threads per inch just to make sure I'll be applying the correct threading?
If the threads act as a type of "bearing surface," then it sounds like I'll have to make sure to make them fit just this side of being snug. From there they can "wear in."
HollowPoint
I think allot of the issue's with Lee Enfields comes from people who read up on how it should be done ignoring the fact that both Australian/British riflemen have used these rifle since day dot and gunsmiths from both countries have put in countless hours work to get them shooting to a very high standard by doing things outside the boundries imposed by manuals.There is an awfull lot of very skilled knowledgeable smiths in Australia that can and do get Lee Enfields shooting to a standard well above the norm and it was target rifle smiths who got the first really effective sharpshooter models of the LE out on the battlefield.Lastly a very effective way to shorten an LE's headspace is to hard chrome the bolt face,you can go as thick as .020 and then polish it back too the desired thickness,a popular and easy job. Pat
Theres a type of plating I'd considered trying out to restore the threads of worn bolt heads, the process is already used for similar purposes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroless_nickel_platingDue to the high hardness of the coating it can be used to salvage worn parts. Coatings of 25 to 100 micrometres can be applied and machined back to final dimensions. Its uniform deposition profile mean it can be applied to complex components not readily suited to other hard wearing coatings like hard chromium.
The armorers manuals were the result of decades of hands on experiance by qualified authorities. Many of those authorities were combat veterans rather than pencil pushers.
Several contemporary publications on the Enfield by both military and civilian authors, draw on information supplied by the very men responsible for the development of both the rifle and the .303 ammunition it fired.
Loose headspace is okay when cartridge cases are manufactured with this in mind, but only up to a point. Execessive side play is never a good thing and is noted as a common cause of failure to eject, as well as leaving a path for shearing forces.
Since almost every incident of injury or death due to a failure of an Enfield action is the result of broken, shattered, or sheared bolt heads, I take the qualty and fit of the bolt head very seriously, just as the British military did.
The argument about over clocking was due to the statement that the Enfield bolt head was designed to be loose fresh from the factory rather than becoming worn and loosened over time due to firing many thousands of rounds and ham handed reassembly by generations of recruits.
I've still seen no manual entry or armorers notes that instruct that a bolt head that clocks in with no overturn should be deliberately overclocked by ten degrees much less twenty.
Allowable headspace figures of .074 before the bolt head or bolt body or both should be replaced are not to be taken as that being the optimal headspace. When the rifle has a headspace of .074 its a sign that it has become worn, but not so worn as to call for rectification just yet.
So long as the bolt closed easily on a .064 gauge it was good to go, most .303 rims of the day, both military and sporting, were thinner than that, .064 being the design maximum acceptable rim thickness.
Despite some contary opinions, head space does affect accuracy. When the Krag was in development they tested the effects of headspace from a .002 head clearance with the test cartridges to .006 clearance and possibly larger. It was found that a head gap of .004 was optimal for accuracy, accuracy was actually lessened by a .002 headgap.
The cartridge drawings of the Krag indicated a .064 rim, but the Manuals give the expected .060 as the rim thickness.
Commercially produced cartridges with rims as thick as .068 were prized by handloaders and target shooters.
I suspect this was in part due to target shooters lapping the locking lug till the safety lug made contact to improve lock up. That and the incidents of lug setback when the higher velocity Krag ammo was introduced and found to be a tad too hot for the average Krag action.
I've read of Australian shooters examining .303 collections of once fired reloadable cases and saving those with rims of .068 for handloading and target shooting.
The Lithgow was originally manufactured using the highest quality machinery built specifically for the purpose by Pratt & Whitney in the US and shipped to Australia after a short trial run to train key personel.
I've never seen any reason to doubt the quality of the pre WW2 Lithgow rifles.
When the surplus rifles were imported here most were of decent quality, but many were not.
Before 1916 the Lithgow boltway was manufactured at the minimum clearance figure and the body body diameter was manufactured to the gauge at the maximum allowable diameter. These were the only SMLE rifles that showed a tendency to become jammed by dust and sand during WW1 fighting in the Dardanelles campaign . The rifles at the front were loosened up by armorers and put back in service quickly, while those not yet shipped had the clearances increased before shipping.
The AIA site states that the common overturn for a No.4 rifle was 7.5 degrees, not ten or twenty. AIA tries for no more than a one degree overturn for their match rifles.
Bolt body diameter is an other area often over looked, since the bolt has significant clearance when new allowing some tilt under hand pressure when cycling the bolt. I've run across a few with little side clearance but with vertical play enough that the bolt head contacts the lefthand feed lip of the magazine wearing a flat spot, and a few magazines with lefthand lip partly torn away. The leverage of the hand on the bolt handle cants front of the bolt down and to the left, there being little or no wear on the right side. If present at all wear to the surface of the bolt body would be confined to the rear and right of the rib and directly behind the guide rib locking lug surface.
Bolt bodies slightly larger in diameter than a worn bolt body could be used to take up some of that slack.
plating the inside surfaces of the bolt way might improve the fit, and reduce further wear.
Since my target shooting doesn't involve crawling through mud I'm completey satisfied with a precisely fitted bolt head and bolt body that doesn't noticably rock when cycling.
Sam,
When I "quoted" 10 to 20 degrees, I was not measuring it with a dial calliper or a protractor - I was making a WAG. 7.5 degrees does sound about right. It's not much anyway.
If a SMLE will headspace correctly with the bolt head, does it matter how far past the bolt rib the bolt head goes when it is NOT being fired? The bolt raceway rib stops the head rotating past the line of the rib anyway (the head can only turn FORWARD when in the action, tightening headspace, NOT increasing it - unless they made a reverse threaded bolt head and bolt body for you), and the threads (unless damaged) also prevent setback of the head, so, so long as it is of proper headspace WHEN IN BATTERY, it does not really matter how far past TDC the bolt head clocks "on the slack".
AIA rifles are hardly battle rifles. AIA isn't churning them out fast to help against the Japanese...
Your assumptions on Lithgow are also VERY VERY flawed.
I'd also like to see your references for "Since almost every incident of injury or death due to a failure of an Enfield action is the result of broken, shattered, or sheared bolt heads" - please cite the injuries and deaths, as well as cases of sheared bolt heads.
When you turn the bolt into battery the the bolt head screws up tight to the bolt drawing back from the casehead, not the other way around. when you open the bolt the bolt head unscrews by the number of degrees of bolt rotation.(the head can only turn FORWARD when in the action, tightening headspace, NOT increasing it -
How tight the bolt head screws up against the mating shoulder of the bolt body depends on how closely fitted it is to begin with.
You can find the majority of easily available recorded cases in the records of the House of Commons of Canada, I think its in the 1908 edition as part of the Ross Rifle debates.
The death of a hunter is recounted by a John Crosman who was asked to examine the rifle to determine the cause of the accident, thats in a Gun digest I still have a 1981 35 year aniversery edition. Crosman wrote in this article on recalls that the incident had happened more than a dozen years earlier so that would have been before 1969.
Since I'm not a medical examiner I don't have access to all the records of firearms accidents in England and Cananda, so these will have to do.
Theres at least one case of the entire right rear sidewall breaking away maiming a British sargent. The case came up in the British Parlement when it was decided to grant him and his family funds to cover their expenses till he could return to duty.
Those incidents in Canada included one death and a rather hideous injury that the victim survived.
The incidents in Canada involved rifles in good condition and freshly manufactured milspec ammunition on rifle ranges.
The incident Crosman wrote of involved a well worn rifle and fresh Federal sporting ammunition, Crosmans verdict was that bore condition caused the accident, but Federal voluntarily recalled their .303 ammo anyway and adjusted the load to make allowances for corroded bores.
Only the maimed sgt is named in the official records, it was not considered proper to list the victims by name during the Ross debates. They had a certain respectbfor privacy in those days.
A injured Range officer may be mentioned by name. A "man of the northwest territory" is mentioned as having been killed.
There is a detailed list of dozens of action and barrel failures in a two year period.
I think it was P O Ackley who ran an experiment on the progression of degradation of an Enfield action when testing an Improved case .303 wildcat with increasingly powerful loads. As expected the bolt heads go first after increases in headspace.
A range officer posted of a blown bolt head incident he witnessed perhaps two years ago, I think it was at Bisley but I'm not sure. A young woman bystander was hit in the neck by shards but not badly injured.
Last edited by Multigunner; 06-08-2011 at 07:10 AM.
You can make a Cerosafe casting of the threads then carefully unscrew the casting and measure the impression of the threads.
Theres conflicting information on the Enfields, partly due to changes in specification and variation among manufacturers, and in large part because the British Ministry of Defence destroyed almost all the records on development during the 1950's. Lord cottesloe called it a "slaughter" in his forward to Reynolds book of the Lee Enfield.
Reynolds for the most part had to rely on bits and pieces found in personal files of a number of officers who had saved copies as part of their work and on his own memories.
Theres also a lot of glamorised bull and folks finding excuses why their own rifles have such loose bolts and headspace by claiming they were made that way.
Any rifle that spent decades in service will show some wear. Worn rifles run through a hurried FTR and wrapped with little expectation of ever being issued again turn out not to be as new in fact as in appearance.
A gunsmith on another forum had a fresh from the mummy wrap No.4 blow its bolthead on the first shot. Luckily he test fires every rifle remotely in a firing booth so no one was hurt.
I test fire every rifle I get remotely, even brand new rifles. No sense taking chances, or depending on the workmanship of some overworked assustant armorer of fifty plus years ago much less some unknown third world grease monkey with a bolt head spanner.
I guess I wrote it poorly - I meant that seeing the bolt head is locked into the action guide rib, when the bolt is cammed open, the bolt head runs FORWARD on the bolt (unscrews by almost 90 degrees), technically decreasing headspace (though of no importance). The only time headspace is DECREASED is when the bolt is turned down to battery - and thuis this is why headspace is measured with the bolt in the battery/closed position.
Now, when in battery, unless the guide rib is damaged, the bolt head cannot further rotate in either direction, more importantly, cannot rotate further ONTO the bolt body and therefore, simply, overclocking is not so much an issue so long as the bolt head spaces properly (we are not talking having bolt head threads exposed!). Relying on the threads of the bolt head alone is not overly wise, as the Lee Enfield system relies on the threads AND the bolt head body abutting the bolt body front face and contact with the threads. SOME commercial rifles have tried adjustable headspace with screw on adjustable bolt heads (or in Savage case, allowing the barrel to be reset as required)
That of course is "theoretical", but armourer's DID know what was safe and what was not.
I would hazard a guess that EASILY 85% of SMLE's I have seen and owned exhibited bolt heads turning past TDC (and I never measured the amount, so don't quote 10* to 20*). And all the ones I had I checked headspace, and all passed.
I would not rely on Reynolds too much - there is a LOT of bad information in it, and a lot of VERY VERY outdated assumptions and flat-out incorrectness (his glaring examples are the heavy barrel Lithgows and the No5 "fakes" with metal nosecaps which we all KNOW to be GENUINE) They are just for starters. I no longer have my copy, as I found it rather humourous and useless in many ways (it is FAR from an epic biblical tome! Then again, no work on the Lee Enfield is, though the latest "The Lee Enfield" is getting darned good)
Most of the information supposedly lost (claimed lost) actually wasn't, and was well documented in Australia, New Zealand and Canada, where most of the recent research comes from now. Brits weren't the only ones keeping records.
Lewis , you put out too much common sense...but the manuals triumph for the "learned" it seems. The editing and deletion of posts don't help either.
Funny thing is I have yet to come across any Lee Enfield that could not be made right and shoot. Whilst rifles like the 1903 spngfld ... well they more often than not need to be scrapped. Says alot about them right there. The 03 and the Ross rifle are of the same cloth but at least the canadians took note and ditched their pariah.
As a sidenote it is amazing that the OP can or will likley be able to make an Enfield bolt head. I don't know another rifle action so versatile to be able to do such.. can't make a mauser type bolt and in a mauser if there is a headspace issue it's either a worn chamber shoulder which would require rebarrel , or lug setback...scrap the receiver time.
Love to see the finished product .
Do you know the difference between a pig and an engineer? You can argue with a pig! I am an old fat barrel target guy, but on a #4 could you not remove barrel cut back shoulder, chase extractor cut, min. head and re-cut chamber? Would be a lot less arguing. Gtek
Gtek ; Years ago I had that done to a No4 mismatch action I was given. The job really was two fold as the barrel got cut down , rethreaded and bored out to 44 cal and then rechambered for 44 mag. 20 years ago the whole deal and winding up with a 18" barreled sort of No4 looking carbine in 44 mag cost me a wopping $170 for a smithy to do. I eventually traded it to a buddy whom sacrificed a desert eagle magazine modifying it to the No4 magazine body. Worked and looked great.
On the other hand a set of chamber reamers would likely drive the cost too high if the OP did it himself.
I like the pig & engineer anaolgy...so true so true.
I think the bolt rotation of the Lee Enfield is a good deal less than 90 degrees but I forget the exact figure, either just above or just below 80 degrees I think.
I told you earlier that headspace was not a problem with my old bolt and bolt head, it was looseness of the threads with uneven wear that allowed excessive side play.
Now, when in battery, unless the guide rib is damaged, the bolt head cannot further rotate in either direction, more importantly, cannot rotate further ONTO the bolt body and therefore, simply, overclocking is not so much an issue so long as the bolt head spaces properly
Others I checked with have found that the combination of the Early SMLE bolt head with a later production MkIII bolt body can lead to excessive wear. Some have checked the Notched bolt head taken from a worn MkIII body and found these would only screw into a unworn bolt body for 1/3 of the length of the shank before meeting great resistence. To screw the bolt head in further would have wallowed out the threads ruining the body for use with the proper MkIII type bolt head. This is what the situation was with mine.
The maximum allowable safe condition is a long way from optimal condition, and excessive sideplay was considered as good a reason for replacing the necessary parts as was excessive headspace. Excessive side play reduces the effective spring pressure of the extractor against the inside of the clearance cut. This allows the bolt to spring up faster and farther during bolt kick up. Wear to the bolt body behind the guide rib lug exacerbates that situation.
we are not talking having bolt head threads exposed!). Relying on the threads of the bolt head alone is not overly wise, as the Lee Enfield system relies on the threads AND the bolt head body abutting the bolt body front face and contact with the threads. SOME commercial rifles have tried adjustable headspace with screw on adjustable bolt heads (or in Savage case, allowing the barrel to be reset as required)
That of course is "theoretical", but armourer's DID know what was safe and what was not.
Sideplay also is a major cause of failure to eject by limiting the amount of sideways force applied to the fired case during the ejection cycle. If the case rim does not contact the inner left side wall with enough friction to pop it out of the grip of the extractor then it will usually fall back into the action when contacting the ejector screw which would normally eject a unfired case with ease.
Thats an advantage of living in a country where they had warehouses full of unissued spare parts and many unissued rifles sold off cheap to locals, a many veteran former armorers who became gunsmiths who specialized in repairing Enfields.
I would hazard a guess that EASILY 85% of SMLE's I have seen and owned exhibited bolt heads turning past TDC (and I never measured the amount, so don't quote 10* to 20*). And all the ones I had I checked headspace, and all passed.
Considering the loose headspace allowance for the Enfield I'm not suprized, and I'd be even more suprized if a gunsmith worth his salt who specialized in the Enfield would let one leave his shop with bad headspace or excessive sideplay.
But many in Australia have posted to other boards about their aquisitions, and believe it or not not every Lithgow in the country has remained in prime condition or been within a mile of a gunsmith since Moses was a pup.
Theres also the color coded cadet rifles to consider.
Green paint meant safe to fire, Yellow meant degraded but still safe, Red meant if you love your momma and don't want to make her cry please don't pull the trigger on a live round.
Some like to collect these, not intending to ever fire them. Some never knew what the red paint meant and cleaned the stock, now they have a rifle any armorer would condem and don't know it.
The discussion has become more civil without the hoity toity putting on of airs and the admission that even a collector with a big stable will throw AWAG that turned out to be a gross exageration out as solid fact.
PS
When fired the collar of the firing pin will make contact with the base of the bolt head shank, that being what limits firing pin protrusion. The looser the headspace the less the striker impact is cushioned by the primer. When the collar contacts the bolt head shank, any looseness in the fit of bolt head to bolt body will allow the boltface to be pushed closer to the case head.
This would leave a temporary gap between the mating shoulders of bolt head and bolt body. The bolt head is then forced violently against the bolt body by the expansion of the case, the looser the headspace and wider the gap the more momentum to that movement. The load bearing shoulders are then progressively battered with each shot, and the threads loosened even more.
With a 20 degree allowance before rectification for the Canadian No.4 its no wonder they ran short of Long Branch rifles and now have to buy Pakistan Ordnance Factory No.4 rifles for their Rangers.
Last edited by Multigunner; 06-08-2011 at 07:58 PM.
Setting back an Enfield barrel was actually a fairly common gunsmith alteration in both Austraila and suprizingly in France.
French gun laws allowed civilians to own military rifles only if it could not chamber a military cartridge still in use.
The collectors got around this by having the barrel set back to shorten the chamber to 54 mm and a ".303 Sporting" cartridge identical to the .303 British other than case length and position of the shoulder was developed.
A Similar cartridge called the 7.7X54R was developed in Australia, and besides the set back Enfields it was also used in a single shot conversion of the FN FAL.
The limited ban on military cartridges in some districts of australia was not nationwide and near as I can tell lasted for only a short time.
Sam,
A WAG was all you were going to get - some of us do not have the "anality"to be bothered to precisely measure how much past-TDC a bolt head rotates. I could measure it, and it would be meaningless, because simply the rifles all headspace correctly, exhibit limited sideplay, have straight raceways and guide ribs, and shoot fantastically. Most have their original bolt heads, none show wear in the lugs or setback in the raceways or locking recess.
I never mentioned sideplay previously. Sideplay is a sure indication of more likely an ACTION problem than a bolt problem. Have you used the action straightness jig to check your action? Have you measured the distance between the left and right rear action sidewalls/raceways? Have you checked the integrity of the guide rib? Have you checked the guiderib wear near the front end? have you checked the extractor cut for defects?
Now, you mention the early notched bolt head in the later bolt body. Considering that notched bolt heads (with corresponding firing pin with lug on the collar to facilitate removal for cleaning) were withdrawn from field use in WW1, and MOST WW1 production did away with it EARLY ON - simply because it was thought ill advised to allow a regular soldier to totally strip a bolt for cleaning. The new designed firing pin and bolt head of course do not have this feature, and it was slightly altered such that - as you have found - an earlier notched head will NOT fit the body without effort.
So, who was using a notched bolt head? This was never mentioned previously - and if your BSA had the notched bolt head, it was most assuredly a replacement with an earlier part. I do NOT have a copy of List Of Changes anymore, but I believe the change in bolt heads and firing pins was officially promulgated in 1914, maybe 1915. Most of these early bolt heads were to be removed and stored as "emergency spares" or simply destroyed. Any rifles that came in for repair had these removed and changed.
In my years of collecting, only 3 SMLE III's had this feature original to them - and all of them were Police issue SMLE III's (that did not get military armourer attention per se)
Additionally, I have had new replacement bolt bodies that simply will NOT fit an action - too LITTLE sideplay. I have had to re-head only 1 rifle in all my years, and that was a 1918 BSA. I had to try 7 different bolt heads, because most simply would NOT clock properly AT ALL - most UNDER clocked significantly. And as you know, British made SMLE's had pretty random interchageability, whereas Lithgows have the best (better machinery, thanks P&W!)
Gunsmiths around every corner here... geez, I wish! I know of 6. That's within a 200 mile radius.
Last edited by Vulch; 06-08-2011 at 08:10 PM.
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