Duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube

[9mmcast]

Has anyone had success with duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube?

[MtGun44]

Not meaning to offend, but my impression of the hard commercial
"lubes" is that they are mostly for show, and don't do a lot of
real lubing. Ok for moderate velocity loads, but even in my .45 acp
I get significant leading with commercial hard lubed bullets, which
I attribute primarily to the poor performance of these lubes.

I shoot them a lot for IPSC where only moderate velocity and
moderate accy are required, and I don't care to spend my personal time
casting bullets for quick and dirty shooting. My good bullets are
for hunting and shooting groups at longer distances.

There are a lot of good lube formulas out there, but most are
softer lubes. There is a lot of discussion and apparently some
success with Johnson Paste wax and mixes of it and other
improvers, harder lube but not much related to the commercial
hard lubes.

My first thought is "why would you want to duplicate them?" -
again, not trying to be rude but just as I understand that class of
lube - it appears to be mostly formulated to make sure that lubed
bullets will ship well in bulk and store well in warm temps rather
than provide a top quality lube.

I understand the practical commercial benefits to this class of lube,
and they certainly have a place in the market, but it seems a bit out
of place for us ' casting crazies' on this site. Feels like mostly straight
"Gulf wax" parafin with a crayon dropped in for dye to me, but while
a shoot many thousands of them per year, I've never thought much
about the formulation of the commercial hard lubes.

One of the more experienced folks may be able to correct my impressions
if they have more definitive experience with this.

Bill

[Lloyd Smale]

Im with mtgun on this one

[9mmcast]

Not meaning to offend, but my impression of the hard commercial
"lubes" is that they are mostly for show, and don't do a lot of
real lubing. Ok for moderate velocity loads, but even in my .45 acp
I get significant leading with commercial hard lubed bullets, which
I attribute primarily to the poor performance of these lubes.

I shoot them a lot for IPSC where only moderate velocity and
moderate accy are required, and I don't care to spend my personal time
casting bullets for quick and dirty shooting. My good bullets are
for hunting and shooting groups at longer distances.

There are a lot of good lube formulas out there, but most are
softer lubes. There is a lot of discussion and apparently some
success with Johnson Paste wax and mixes of it and other
improvers, harder lube but not much related to the commercial
hard lubes.

My first thought is "why would you want to duplicate them?" -
again, not trying to be rude but just as I understand that class of
lube - it appears to be mostly formulated to make sure that lubed
bullets will ship well in bulk and store well in warm temps rather
than provide a top quality lube.

I understand the practical commercial benefits to this class of lube,
and they certainly have a place in the market, but it seems a bit out
of place for us ' casting crazies' on this site. Feels like mostly straight
"Gulf wax" parafin with a crayon dropped in for dye to me, but while
a shoot many thousands of them per year, I've never thought much
about the formulation of the commercial hard lubes.

One of the more experienced folks may be able to correct my impressions
if they have more definitive experience with this.

Bill

Bill,

I merely asked if anyone had success duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube. That is the only question I am interested in finding an answer to. I'm not interested in opinions, impressions, etc. regarding my question. I merely wanted to know if anyone had success. That is all I am interested in. Sorry if I affended you, but I didn't want my question becoming obliterated.

[waksupi]

9mm, lots of luck, with trying to have a topic strickly adherred to on this board. It ain't gonna happen. Never has, never will. The gain is, you stand an excellent chance of learning something you never considered.

[Bass Ackward]

9MM,

Every couple of months we get someone coming by wanting to duplicate a hard lube of some sort. Usually guys wanting to cast professionally. Why we had one a couple of weeks ago who was asking about Magma too. Magma's hard stuff must be better than most, because it get's asked about the most. There has never been a post answering your exact question in the last few years that I can remember reading.

We have several professional casters here that have to use something, but they ain't sayin for some reason.

Big dilema. The main ingredient to date for hardening is paraffins which add nothing to the lubricity of a lube. They mostly detract because cast bullets do not permit situations where high rotational forces can cause good lube displacement, like handgun bullets, which you apparently already understand.

Good luck.

[9.3X62AL]

9mm Cast--

Dittoes to both Waksupi and Bass. Topicality here is like frequency drift on analog radio tuners--just part of the game.

[bishopgrandpa]

The wandering back and forth is why I am on this forum so much. I have been casting for over 40 years with only locals to talk to. Now I have the whole world to benefit from. Who sez you can't teach an old dog new tricks? I'm grateful for all the questions and answers. Keep 'em coming.

[Lloyd Smale]

theres a ton to learn hear and your best bet is to listen to the answers no matter how off topic they are because in everyone of them youll probably learn something. The professional casters that arent giving out the hard lube recipe are doing it for two reasons. One there not to proud of it or two there not using it. Bills post stated fact and wasnt meant to offend anyone and just because a guy makes a post doesnt mean he owns it.

[KYCaster]

Now hold on just a minnit here guys. Yer steppin on my toes.

I don't mind telling you I put Thompson's Blue Angel lube on all the boolits I sell. I've tried a lot of lubes, both commercial and home brewed and Dave's is the best I've found so far.(Sorry Glen, I haven't tried your Carnauba Red yet)

Rather than blaming the lube, have you considered that your leading and inaccuracy problems may be related to boolit fit instead? Does your boolit supplier give you what's exactly right for your gun, or do you just pick up what's on the shelf? It could make a difference.

Believe it or not, the 45ACP is one of the worst applications for hard lubes, it seems to work much better in higher pressure rounds like 40S&W, 38Super and 357Mag. I shoot many thousands of 45ACP every year and have very little problem with leading. Both the guns I use in competition prefer boolits sized .453 rather than .452 so I could eliminate my leading by doing that, but there are lots of tight chambered guns out there that won't function reliably with a .453 boolit so .452 is what I use for standard size and I use the exact same product that I sell.

I've recently started working with cast in rifles and I have yet to find a lube that works better than Blue Angel in all of them I've tried. Factory duplication loads in 22 Hornet, 30-30, 357Mag., 35Rem., and 44-40 work very well with no leading whatsoever. Various 50-50 alox lubes have severe velocity and pressure limitations. And I don't understand how you guys can get any kind of performance from Lee LLA, it was a dismal failure for me. The only thing I've used that comes anywhere close to Blue Angel is Dan's Bullshop Speed Green, and I'm still testing to see which one comes out best.

Bottom line is, everybody has their own favorites and their own reasons for using them. Seems like some people can make most anything work.


9mmcast: I don't think anybody here can answer your question. I'm sure there are commercial casters who have done it with varying degrees of success, but I don't think they're willing to give up their formula. And this is just a guess....I wouldn't be surprised if Magma buys their lube from Dave Thompson.

OK guys, thanks for listening, now back to your regrlarly scheduled program.

Jerry

[Texasflyboy]

Has anyone had success with duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube?

What I have done in the past is request the MSDS (Material Safety Data Sheet) from suppliers.

A little investigative work can usually reveal the composition, and source, of the raw ingredients.

[carpetman]

The question is,has anyone had success with duplicating Magmas Engineering Hard wax lube? I have not. Why? I dont have a lube heater nor do I want to create a condition where I need one. For this reason,I have devoted more time to developing a hemorrhoid transplant than I have to duplicating Magma Engineering hard lube.

[sundog]

Ray, about the 'roid transplant. Any success yet? Just wondering, because I know someone who desperately needs mine.... sundog

[OLPDon]

A little investigative work can usually reveal the composition, and source, of the raw ingredients.[/QUOTE]

Great Link:
The information H-way stairway to the stars Thank U (Al Gore?)
Don...........

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess everyone has differnt experiences with differnt lubes. About 5 years ago i did a test on my own with my own guns. Both rifle and pistol and both low velocity and high velocity loads. The only two hard lubes i tried were thompsons and red rooster and they both did miserably in handguns both high and low velocity Most of the lube was still on recovered bullets. Now these arent your avearge out of the box guns they were clements and linebaugh guns and a couple smiths. None of them ever gave me leading problems till i used hard lube. All of them did with hard lube. Accuracy suffered but im guessing it was because of the leading. The hard lubes did ok in the rifles but no better then javalina or lbt blue soft. I did notice that in even high velocity rifle loads leading was minimal with the hard lubes. What lube did best overal? id have to give that to lbt blue. I now make my own and it is a combination of about 80 percent felix lube 20 percent magma blue hard with about a 1/4 of a bottle of lee alox thrown in and a little corduba wax. I mix usually a 3 lb coffee can full and its done as well as lbt blue for me. I use the magma in it because i store alot of bullets and like javalina felix lube is a little to soft and the heat in the barn gets to it. I use the alox because thats about the only good use i can come up with for it. Like you ive had crap luck using it as tumble lube. I know a few professional casters myself and they all will tell me they use the hard lube because it handles shipping of bullets better and they will all admitt that hard lubes for the most part are not the greatest. John Linebaugh said it best he said to leave the crayons to the children. Now hes a man that knows sixguns and what it takes to make them shoot and wouldnt put one bullet through his gun with hard lube. To give Glen a little credit i did try some of his carnauba red that i bought to use the same way i do the magma to firm up my homemade lube and by God it did seem to lube pretty well. Dont tell anyone i said that though.

Now hold on just a minnit here guys. Yer steppin on my toes.

I don't mind telling you I put Thompson's Blue Angel lube on all the boolits I sell. I've tried a lot of lubes, both commercial and home brewed and Dave's is the best I've found so far.(Sorry Glen, I haven't tried your Carnauba Red yet)

Rather than blaming the lube, have you considered that your leading and inaccuracy problems may be related to boolit fit instead? Does your boolit supplier give you what's exactly right for your gun, or do you just pick up what's on the shelf? It could make a difference.

Believe it or not, the 45ACP is one of the worst applications for hard lubes, it seems to work much better in higher pressure rounds like 40S&W, 38Super and 357Mag. I shoot many thousands of 45ACP every year and have very little problem with leading. Both the guns I use in competition prefer boolits sized .453 rather than .452 so I could eliminate my leading by doing that, but there are lots of tight chambered guns out there that won't function reliably with a .453 boolit so .452 is what I use for standard size and I use the exact same product that I sell.

I've recently started working with cast in rifles and I have yet to find a lube that works better than Blue Angel in all of them I've tried. Factory duplication loads in 22 Hornet, 30-30, 357Mag., 35Rem., and 44-40 work very well with no leading whatsoever. Various 50-50 alox lubes have severe velocity and pressure limitations. And I don't understand how you guys can get any kind of performance from Lee LLA, it was a dismal failure for me. The only thing I've used that comes anywhere close to Blue Angel is Dan's Bullshop Speed Green, and I'm still testing to see which one comes out best.

Bottom line is, everybody has their own favorites and their own reasons for using them. Seems like some people can make most anything work.


9mmcast: I don't think anybody here can answer your question. I'm sure there are commercial casters who have done it with varying degrees of success, but I don't think they're willing to give up their formula. And this is just a guess....I wouldn't be surprised if Magma buys their lube from Dave Thompson.

OK guys, thanks for listening, now back to your regrlarly scheduled program.

Jerry

[fecmech]

Gentlemen--My experience is just the opposite of Loyds. I use hard lubes exclusively in all my hanguns from the .45 acp @700fps to .357 & .44 mag at 1400 fps with no leading and excellent accuracy. You could not get me to go back to 50/50 alox or any other soft lube. They work ok but the guns and cases are a sticky mess after about 100 rds. 50/50 stinks to the high heavens and smokes about as much as black powder. Guys magma is a good lube, if you don't like hard lubes don't use them. I really don't understand why the guys using the soft lubes have such a religious fervor about them. Sorry for the rant guys but I get tired of the hard lubes are crap and soft lubes are nivana.

[357maximum]

I find it awe inspiring, and remarkable how excited/irritated/devoted/argumentative we get over some pretty damn simple differneces in "proportions" of a wax to an oil.

I have often been the guilty one myself..so ...I am not throwing stones here...just making observations..

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess if everyone used the same stuff and had the same ideas on what worked for cast bullets this would be a pretty boring place!!

[45r]

The easy way to make a good hard lube like magma is pariffin mixed with beeswax,moly,anyhydrous lanolin,lubeguard,Marvel Mystery Oil,Japan wax(Carnuba wax), and mix in vasaline to make it softer if it comes out too hard.A lot of THESE INGREDIENTS ARE in most lubes and I have been using blue angel with super moly and it has always worked well.Moly has been known to work well since the 1950S and is now coming back.I have tried all kinds of combinations and as long as you are using the right sized bullet and have a clean smooth bore(firelapped) even pariffin or beeswax(refined) mixed 50/50 with vasaline works,Its called Darr lube and Ive read that is what SPG is.So just mix pariffin with a little beeswax,carnuba,sta-lube moly, and vasaline and you will have something close.You can add the other stuff if you want to make it real slippery.Be sure to mix in a double boiler. If you mix a stick of blue angel with a stick of lyman super moly you will have enough to make alot of bullets and its only a few bucks per stick.I take the lamp shade off and put a light bulb next to my luber and that works like a heater and pull it back a few inchs when the lube starts flowing just right. I put tin foil on cardboard to reflect heat toward luber and away from me.Works with hard lube and you can adjust the heat by moving the bulb closer or farther.

[Bret4207]

Bill,

I merely asked if anyone had success duplicating Magma Engineering's Hard Wax Lube. That is the only question I am interested in finding an answer to. I'm not interested in opinions, impressions, etc. regarding my question. I merely wanted to know if anyone had success. That is all I am interested in. Sorry if I affended you, but I didn't want my question becoming obliterated.

Melt up some Crayola Crayons. It's about the same IMHO. At least thats my impression.