BTSniper Custom Tools and Dies

[Utah Shooter]

I could be wrong but it does seem that most of the good groups that I see from swaged 22lr cases are HP's.

Just curious but what brass are you using to make these out of?

[BT Sniper]

I actually wrote down what cases I used. I'll have to look that up....... actually on the data sheet next to the "bullet fill in the blank" in the pic I wrote down the brand jacket I used. One was CCI and other was Win super X, I'll have to look up teh 60 grain data. Pretty sure it was CCI too.

Top group was 55 grain HP, next down was 60 grain with small lead tip, last group was 69 grain with a rather large lead tip as they where all made from the same length 22LR case/jacket

69 grain bullet group had two sighters on it, these where the first two rounds fired on paper, then there was the one flier. I'll have to work on those fliers.


As far as brass prefrence, or any difference I have noticed in forming 22 cal bullets from 22LR brass is only one thing....... The Fed marked brass is .7 grains heavier. That is it! The rest form up all the same to me.

I have a couple theories as to how to avoid the wrinkled/folded over tip of the jacket. This is just a theory at the moment but in the 500 bullets or so I have made it seems true,

1. Temp of the die and reloading press makes a difference, if the die is cold the swage lube doesn't "flow" properly. Again just my opinion but when I warmed the die and press by putting a heater in frount of it I made a couple hundred perfect bullets and only 3 folded tips.

2. speed at which you form the bullet. I noticed this more when the die was cold. Going slow produced better tips, form to fast with a cold die was almost guarenteed folded top. Once die and press was warm it did not matter how slow or fast I formed the bullet and all was good again.

So more to come.

BT

[PhilOhio]

Nice groups, BT. The smaller ones, 1" or less, should be the norm at 100 yards, using 55 grainers and the usual twist rate for them. From a machine rest, I think you would have substantially tighter groups. It's amazing how much heartbeat affects it.

Utah Shooter, the industry and swagers generally refer to this type of boolit, with the jacket extending all the way to the point, as "jacketed open point" boolits. If there is exposed lead and it is hollow pointed, then they are jacketed soft point hollow points (JSPHP or JSHPs). In bench rest shooting, the jacketed open points (JOP) seem to be significantly more accurate. My theory is that they must form sort a shock wave "point" that is more perfect than a metallic one.

Whenever you try to leave exposed lead at the tip, you are going to run into forming problems, slightly lopsided boolits, as in one of BT's pictures, and less than perfect accuracy. So I have given up on that, and for 30 years have made all of my own in JOP form. I've made thousands, and they are always accurate, unless I screw up.

At typical .22 centerfire velocities, you don't need exposed lead for better expansion anyway. They are going to open up and/or explode. Do everything humanly possible to keep them perfectly symetrical. Remember, at 3000 FPS they are spinning more than 180,000 RPM. And also, that's why if you try to push these thin-walled jackets much faster, they will disintegrate shortly after leaving the muzzle.

As for cases sometimes folding over, it has to do with a lot of things, the most important seeming to be hardness and thickness. To avoid fold over, it is very important to be sure the cases are positively annealed. And in some instances, even that doesn't do the trick, as it is just the wrong alloy of brass. Again, I have had the worst luck with CCI brass, so I never bother with it anymore. It's too hard and the alloy is too random, it appears. But manufacturers are changing things all the time, so what is true today may be different tomorrow.

When you find a type of case that doesn't fold over often, and forms well, stick with it if you can...until the maker changes something and it stops working for you.

Remember again: Because these boolits are so small, light, and travel so fast, every seemingly minor shortcut or failure to follow best practices is going to be amplified in the inaccuracy problems it creates. If you can swage very accurate 45 or 55 grain boolits travelling 3000 to 4000 feet per second, you can swage really great boolits in any larger caliber.

[Bull45cal]

Brian,

It has been a pleasure following your progress, off and on, over the past year and before (when you were posting on other threads asking questions about making dies). I have had the same questions, but am far behind you in actually creating my own dies.
I'm not sure if you have covered this somewhere else, and if you have, I apologize. There is just so much to read with all the post concerning swaging 22 bullets. So, on to my question.
I would like to swage 60+ grain pure lead bullets from lead wire. I'm going to use these bullets in subsonic cartridges (small wildcat), so the jacket is unnecessary and undesired. A pointed bullet would be fine, but not sought after, since a round nose does fairly well at the intended velocitiy. I'm going for the cheap/easy method here, and would prefer not to cast 22 bullets. At the risk of sounding like a techno geek. "Do you have a die for that?" I hope you do, as this would fit perfectly into my project parameters. Thank you for your time and attention.

Shane

[BT Sniper]

Shane,

This sounds fimilar. You, or someone else, may have posted a similar question on teh forum in the past.

What you are after sounds completly possible. I know I could make just what you are looking for. just need the fine details. I am positive it can be done all in one die, probably able to make it a "squirt" die at the same time, as in put in a piece of lead wire any weight you want out pops a 60 grain bullet every time, or any weight you desire.

So basicly the shape of any standard over the counter 22LR lead bullet right but it will be a smooth swaged lead bullet with no crimp groves? What diamiter? .224, .225, .226? anything you want!

Send me a PM with a few exact details and we shall see what we can do.

BT

[DukeInFlorida]

Brian,

Just got off the phone with FWEST, and you should be expecting to see some PM interest from him.

alfloyd, you should also expect to hear from Frank regarding some custom bottom punches and perhaps even some lead mini-extrusion dies for core wire for .224. I told him how happy I am with the one I got from you, and Brian tells me that you'll be doing his core seating dies.

[FWest]

Pm sent

[kend]

Brian, do you have a set of 22 dies in stock? How do you prefer orders to be placed?

[BT Sniper]

Some more pics.

Improved heavy duty CH 45 cal set



Threaded base punches and new Lee Classic Cast threaded ram top



Universal multi caliber XTP notch die with case prep/expanding mandrels



These happen to be customer's finished dies. I still got plenty more orders to go. I'm working on it


Good shooting and swage on

BT

[bfuller14]

BT Sniper,
Can you get a cannelure tool?

Thank you,
Barry

[BT Sniper]

Yep!

I can offer %10 off CH's tool. Placing an order this week!

BT

[beastybronco]

What would it take to make .204 jackets out of .22 rimfire? I want no more then 40 grains and I know I will have to trim them so they aren't too long but I haven't seen or heard of anybody trying it.

[kend]

BT, what is your preferred method of ordering?

[beastybronco]

[QUOTE=BT Sniper; What is teh final length you are looking for in a 20 cal jacket?

BT[/QUOTE]

don't know yet just starting to do research on this swaging thing. And no not just the jackets, core swage, seat and point form too but I just want FMJ with the option later on to go to a lead tip but from what i read you should be able to do it with the same die

[BT Sniper]

After thinking about it for a few minutes I am 100% positive you can get a 20 cal jacket and bullet from a 22LR piece of brass. I am also 99% positive I could make you a set of dies for it.

It certainly would be a lot of fun! I might have to look into it myself. Maybe pick up a 20 practical barrel for my savage.

BT

[alfloyd]

The hard part of shooting 20 cal bullets, made from 22LR brass, is keeping them below 3200 feet per second so they don't fly apart before they get to the target.
The 204 likes to go fast.

Lafaun

[Utah Shooter]

I have shot mine at 3300-3400 fps with no fly apart. I know that is not close to 4000 but, I think you can push these projectiles faster than what most say.

I for one would be more than interested to see one shot at 4000 fps.

[BT Sniper]

Has anyone actually shot a 22lr jacketed bullet in a 204 yet though? That is a member here anyway or can post some findings for us? Who knows maybe the smaller diameter might be a bit stronger in jacket strength. I have the same concerns but brass jacketed bullets have supprised me more then once! We won't know till some one tries and I still think anything is possible!


I was able to drive a 22 cal 55 grain HPs in a 9 twist to 3500FPS and things where still good They sounded like little lazers! Pretty COOL!

Groups where better for me at 3300 and 3100 FPS but no signs the bullet didn't hold together, just that accuracy was better a bit slower. Heck I might be able to improve upon the accuracy with a bit more shooting and practice with these bullets. Think I'm going to try a 58ish grain bullet that will 100% fill the jacket with no void and no exposed lead so I can be sure and apply a little pressure to the entire formed bullet rather then bullets with open tips.

Measured groups where best 4 out of 5 shots. Gun was Savage 12BVSS 223 rem with 26" barrel.

3480 FPS



3325FPS




3100 FPS

[BT Sniper]

Cruising my photo bucket. Just had to post this pic. Pretty cool lookign bullet I think!

69 grains from standard 22LR brass. Shot pretty decent too. Recovered weight was only around 20 grains but it did a number to the milk jug!

[Utah Shooter]

Utah,

Was that a 22 cal or 20 cal you shot? I imagine it was the 22 correct?

Yup. I just need to test these at a faster fps.

I agree with the thought of a .20 cal. holding tighter as well. Wonder if a bonding agent would make these able to stand faster fps as well?