And I thought I'd heard it all

[turbo1889]

"Using nitro cards in shotgun loads will result in barrel obstructions from loose cards left in the bore and you will bulge your barrel or worse. This is why you see so many old shotguns with barrel bulges, it’s because all they had to use back then was built up card wad stacks and didn't have good plastic wads like we do today. If you use hard card wads in shotgun loads you will sooner or later get a Kaboom."

The basic statement of posts by a high ranking “Bonus Member” on another forum that will not be named and I have now permanently left and will no longer be posting on due to being told off for pointing out the ludicrousness of such a statement.

Am I the only one banging his head against a brick wall when dealing with this level of ignorance? Am I the only sane one left on the planet? Am I totally messed up and everyone else is sane and it’s because I’m not sane that I think they aren’t sane?

Asking for a sanity check please, could I get a show of hands of those who are still not robot zombies to be sure I’m not the only one left standing wondering what the heck. Seriously, any live ones left out there. I’m starting to wonder if I’m really the last one left standing. I’m pretty sure James @ Dixie would scratch his head on that one too but who knows maybe the zombies finally got him and I just haven’t heard yet.

[Smoke73]

I'm new to shotgunning turbo but I would tend to believe 8-10000 psi should clear out the "cardboard" hope so anyways I'm us em! LOL

[smoked turkey]

I am by no means an expert when it comes to shotshell loading, but I have loaded and personally fired quite a few 410s in my bolt action that I have made up "old school" using nitro cards with felt cushion wads and have experienced "0", nada problems. I also mostly use that same set up in my 12 and 28 gauge muzzleloaders again with no problems. In fact I have found that wadding method to be more to my liking than the plastic wad column that I sometimes use. The squirrel population here probably doesn't like it too good because that is what method I prefer for hunting those critters.

[Montana Slim]

I've loaded / fired thousands of black powder shells using the "nitro" card over-powder + fibre wad combo without incident over the past 10-12 years....must be livin' right....haha.

Slim

[Johnch]

Errrrr
cut apart a Winchester or Remington standard slug
Last ones I cut apart still had some type of stacked wad and a over powder wad

So if the factory feels it is safe , who am I to second guess the tens of thousands of round they load

Sometimes the experts on a few of the other sites ...........have some interesting ideas

John

[waksupi]

That will teach you to hang out on other forums. For shame!

[mckutzy]

A little wile ago a topic came up about wad impressions with using lee slugs, the gent was having a cross stamped into the wad. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=116096
OP with your wisdom we found out what was going on.
After my last loading session about a week or two ago, I use wad cards to fill space in the wad to bring up the Lee slug as to make a good crimp. These cards are kinda thin but they do work. A thought was, what if after this type of phenomena occurred that a card might have jumped from the small stack somehow, cocked at an angle and was flattened against the walls of the barrel... what would happen......... Im not concerned and will continue to do so, but my thought did bring about the question for me to ponder.

So perhaps this might have been a concern about a possibility of this, but I think now after reading some greener's books and others that maybe if there was a bulge it might have been caused of the base wad in the shell being the obstruction, than the cards of the payload.
my $.02

[eye shot]

I would think the base wad will allways stay in place because for every action there is a reaction. I have never had any kind or combination of wads that have not exited the barrel.

[sargenv]

Even in my experiemental days, I never once had any issue with card wads not exiting the barrel.. now sometimes they came out in visible pieces (looked like confetti) but besides the ribbing from my squad mates (skeet league) the targets broke when I hit em and the gun barrel was always clear for the next shot.

[Harter66]

I think maybe that particular dumbasskiss was wrapped a little too tight and had his barrel bulged,a full choke should cure him.

If you can ask if you've lost your crackers,odds are good its the rest of the world that's screwed up.

I've loaded a few in 410s and shot some built up wads in 12s w/no faults my Dad loaded and shot probably 1000s of them and never mentioned any issue other than major leading when they tried to hotrod the long range goose loads.

[scb]

I believe the persons may well be correct - sort of. It's always been my understanding that barrel bulges are primarily caused by wads left in the barrel. However the wads are not the culprit. Old paper cases which absorb moisture while hunting or just sitting around, and ruin the powder causing squib loads are the real problem. You'll get the exact same outcome with a plastic wad if you have a bad or missing powder charge.

[turbo1889]

Thanks guys, my head feels better now !!!


_____________________________________________

Some miscellaneous comments and notes on some of the replies that caught my eye:

Johnch, you and I have had our disagreements in the past so it was extra special nice to hear from you on this one. Yah, I was pretty sure some of the factory loads still used the old hard cards too not to mention that they go back about two centuries before the plastic wads came out. I think that if the statement in question was really true fowling pieces would have had a heck of a bad rap by now for blowing up in your face considering that some sort of card, fiber, felt, or cork built up wad stack is what they used in them for two centuries.

Mckutzy, wisdom? I wouldn’t quite go that far brother although I appreciate the compliment. First comes knowledge, then comes understanding, and last of all comes wisdom. I think I’ve got some knowledge and enough understanding to keep me from getting into to much trouble (knowledge alone without any understanding or wisdom can be dangerous) but I wouldn’t go so far as to say I’ve gone anywhere beyond scratching the surface when it comes to wisdom. As to the exact theoretical scenario you propose, I’ll have to think about that one a little. A lot depends on how far apart the separation is between the slug and the wad/sabot when you get a double strike in a shotgun forcing cone with a wad-slug or sabot-slug and the slug outruns its carrier during the jump across the forcing cone void. I don’t think the card could manage to get between the slug and its carrier (the wad or the sabot) on the side wall since everything I have seen indicates the slug never gets completely outside of the carrier but only moves inside it forwards some unknown distance for a brief moment during passage through the forcing cone. I don’t think the slug in any sensible combination is loose enough fit inside the carrier to allow enough room for a card wad turned sideways on kilter to fit between the slug and its carrier and get lodged to one side increasing the carrier side wall thickness on that side but it is something that warrants further study because there are unique conditions in that combination unlike any normal load combination.

Scb, get what your saying. Problem is that all we need is another crazy misconception running wild out there and every time we post any kind of suggestions for a load using some kind of wad column using card wads or similar we get pounced on by a pack of internet ninjas screaming that card wads are dangerous and that if you use them your going to blow up your gun. And no, I’m not an agent for the hard card manufacturing industry. I’m just sick of dealing with such crazy misconceptions that run wild and attract the internet ninjas like flies to garbage and then they start buzzing around our heads smelling of the garbage they just ingested.

[bohica2xo]

That is pretty entertaining. Too bad people that stupid manage to reproduce.

I started out reloading shotshells when plastic wads were in their infancy. Do any of you recall the "T wad"?

Plastic wads were expensive. If you shot a lot (I bought Red Dot in 20 pound cans) it just cost too much. I could buy Alcan hair felt wads & nitro cards cheap back then.

Some of my peers were using a piece of plastic sheet called a "shot wrapper". It was a rectangular sheet of polyethylene plastic about .020 thick. You wound it into a spiral, and placed it in the shell after seating the wad - but before dropping the shot. It unwound and sat on the wad - to contain the shot inside the case. I tried it, but it was an extra step...

I shot thousands of reloaded shotshells with stacks of card wads, shot wrappers, etc. loaded in them - through a Cutts Compensator on the end of my Model 12 winchester shotgun. NEVER did find even a stray piece of a card wad or shot wrapper in the cutts. If a part of the payload was going to lodge someplace, that would be it.

Now, old rem. "Power Piston" wads? You would find strings of plastic hanging from the cutts after shooting a couple hundred rounds. Never saw a visible piece of a plastic wad inside the birdcage, but the plastic would be hanging like angel hair on the outside of it. Around 1975, plastic wads quit making a mess with the cutts.

Nitro cards stuck in the barrel. Nope.

B.

[JIMinPHX]

I ain't even close to being an expert on loading shot shells, but I do seem to remember seeing card wads inside those clear hulled buckshot shells from S&B. Those are current production, not some antiques that are still laying around from 100 years ago.

[stubshaft]

The problem with these eggspurts is that they create a rumor mill from noobs who don't know enough and believe them.

[troy_mclure]

ive shot out a plastic wad from a bad load of rem nitro steel. the shot rolled out the barrel, then a goose flared right in front of me, i fired without thinking. if i can blow out a heavy 3" mag plastic wad out with another 3" nitro steel with no effect, i figure a light little card would do less than nothing.

[missionary5155]

Good morning
The senerio I think that happens is a Squib load leaves the nitro cards in the bore and the shooter goes ahead and fires another load down the obstructed tube. Naturally would blame it on the cards and not his own failure.

[tomme boy]

Maybe they have things crossed a little. Federal has a paper base in the shell. It has been a long standing rule to not use these shells if the inside has been wet as the base can come out when fired. This mighr be what they are trying to get at, but they do not have the facts straight. I have seen pictures with these shells with no base wad.????

[Simonpie]

ive shot out a plastic wad from a bad load of rem nitro steel. the shot rolled out the barrel, then a goose flared right in front of me, i fired without thinking. if i can blow out a heavy 3" mag plastic wad out with another 3" nitro steel with no effect, i figure a light little card would do less than nothing.

I'm betting the important words here are "the shot rolled out the barrel." Some shot left in the barrel would certainly be an issue and would likely be gone when doing your forensics on the blowup. It could lead to falsely blaming a wad.

[nes4ever69]

me thinks that if it is so dangerous, then why are those componets still avaiable? why do some load books have information on those, at leat one i have does.