What Gun?

[.452dia]

I have been casting for my pistols and hunting rifles for many years. I have decided now that I'm retired and have some time that I would like to start shooting a BPCR in some of the local matches in my area. I would like to hear your suggestions and reasons on what rifle to buy. Remember, I'm retred and on a fixed income so I can't afford a 4 or 5 thousand dollar rifle. I have been looking at some of the Winchester and Browning 1885 Hi Wall models on the net and will maybe be able to swing one if I can find a deal. I would like suggestions based on personal experience with a particular rifle and suggestion on what sights, caliber, barrel length, ect.
Thanks,
G

[LUCKYDAWG13]

What is bpcr would in encore in 454 work

[Black Prince]

I have been looking at some of the Winchester and Browning 1885 models on the net and will maybe be able to swing one if I can find a deal.

You are on the right track 452. And if you have not already done it, talk to our own Texasmac here at Cast Bullets and at http://www.texas-mac.com/index.html He may be able to point you to a good buy and he wrote the book on them. Really! Get the book when you get the rifle.

They are excellent BPCR rifles. Another benefit of them is that they were designed and manufactured to meet the exacting sight, height, weight rules that govern BPCR and silhouette matches. They are heavy enough to hold steady and absorb much of the recoil generated by the typical cartridges used in those rifles. They are well made and they not only hold their value should you want to sell it in the future, but if you take care of them, they are actually slowly going up in price as time goes along. There are other rifles that you can use, but you had better know the rules and make sure other rifles meet them, or take your chances with the range officer who examines rifles before any certified match. They look at you like you and your rifle owe them money. They know the Winchester/Brownings are made to meet the standards, so you don’t usually get the third degree.

But just so you know, not all 1885 Winchester/Brownings are what we call a BPCR rifle. 1885 refers to the year they started being made and thus the action used, which are modern renditions of Brownings high wall action of 1885. Both Browning and Winchester put several different stock and barrel configurations on that action and they are all commonly referred to as being an 1885 model. Watch out for that because not all 1885 models are the same thing. So if you want to shoot in silhouette matches, or the long range (1000 yards) matches, you will need a BPCR designated rifle, and not one of the lighter weight barreled models. Yes. They are heavy and they are heavy for a good reason. So when you pick one up and compare it to say a Browning Traditional Hunter model 1885, you are going to think, no way I am going to use that heavy thing. But as soon as you fire about 20 rounds in your first real match, you'll wish you had that weight. And by the end of that match, you'll decide to either quit shooting those matches, or trade your light rifle for a real BPCR heavy rifle. There is NO MIDDLE GROUND here. So decide BEFORE you put your money down what you want to do with the rifle.

The lighter weight barreled 1885's are good hunting rifles, but they are not good BPCR competition rifles. You can use them for that, but you can also forget about being a real competitor. The real BPCR's can be used for hunting, but you have to really want to use one, and they are not what you'd call "handy" in the hunting woods and fields. So pay your money and take your chances like the rest of us. I love it when the guy to my right or left shows up shooting one of those light weight rifles in a silhouette match because I know he isn't going to beat me.

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

Bpcr - black powder cartridge rifle

[LUCKYDAWG13]

Thanks

[wills]

Go to matches. Let it be known you are looking for a rifle. Get on the club's e mail list. Sooner or later someone will have a rifle for sale, and probably sights, mold and other stuff to go with it.

[Don McDowell]

The two best buys for lessor amounts of money going at the moment are the C Sharps 75, and the current crop of Winchester Bpcr's.
But hangon to your pocket book the rifle is just the start, you'll need decent sights and that's going to set you back 500$ or close to it.
Also don't over look the basic Shiloh business rifle and #3, they're just a tad higher than the two already mentioned.
Before you buy tho you may want to go to your local shoot and ask to see some of the folks rifles, and get to handle and see which rifles you like the looks of and the ones that fit you the best.

[357Mag]

.452 -

Howdy !

I've heard that many have enjoyed and had good results with H & R " Bufallo Classic " rifles. These were made in .45-70 and .38-55.
The " classics " feature longer barrels than rgular factory issue stuff, and also upgraded sights.

They are comparatively affordable, and there's a wealth of info on casting/loading for them on this web site.

Just a thought.

Regards,
357Mag

[gunplumber]

over on the bpcr.net forum there is browning 1885 bpcr in 40/65 with accessories for about 1600 and a shiloh 40/65 for 2900, nice looking rifles.

[wills]

The H&R's arent competition legal.

[Don McDowell]

Even at the "gong" matches where H&R's are legal, you seldom see them placing very well. They're pretty light to go into a full blown match where you might have to fire 40-100 rounds over a couple of days, just for score.
Getting a decent sight that will allow for enough windage and elevation on those is another trick.
They're not bad rifles for plinking and hunting, but competition rifles they're not so hot.

[Baja_Traveler]

I'm pretty much in the same boat - I bought a beautiful Pedersoli Sharps (Navy Arms Import) used, but hardly fired. Then I upgraded the sights to MVA and slowly started collecting all the tack involved with shooting BPCR. I bought the rifle 3 months ago, but just fired it for the first time last weekend. It sucks being financially limited and slow to get up to speed, but it has paid off - the rifle shoots just awesome! Not a cheap shoot to get into, but alot of fun.

[tacklebury]

The H&R's arent competition legal.

They are if you install a tang rear sight or one of the traditional buckhorn flip up ladder sights. 8)

[Black Prince]

What Wills and Don and I are TRYING to tell you guys, is that a light rifle like that isn't going to cut it for serious shooting. You can bring a plow horse to a rodeo if you want to, and I don't care how big your hat is, or how fancy your boots are, you ain't going to win anything riding it.

[tacklebury]

I have no idea if someone could beat you or not, but one can still go have fun. Doesn't sound like he's really looking to go to Nationals anyway. Several people I know compete with them and some have placed as high as 3rd against 1874 Sharps and other typical (a.k.a. expensive) guns. I won't discount the quality of some of these or the accuracy. Been checking out the Shiloh page myself recently, but until then, my Buffalo Classic in .45-70 is still my goto local/fun shooter.

**edit**
I should add one comment though. NRA sponsored matches do not consider the Wesson an acceptable design, so if you plan to shoot NRA, might consider another. 8(

[Black Prince]

You make an excellent point, and one that is legitimate. It is fun to participate and it is a heck of a lot of fun to be around and talk with the other shooters. And the wonderful smell of black powder burning is just as good coming from a light weight rifle as it is from a heavy one. Sometimes I get so caught up in trying to be smarter than I am, I forget to stop and smell the roses. You reminded me to do that today, and I THANK YOU.

[.452dia]

Maybe I had better clarify what I'm looking for. No, I'm not looking to compete in the Nationals but I am wanting to compete in local matches at local maybe state level. I want to be competitive but more important to me is having fun and meeting good people.

As I stated before, I'm retired on disibility and on a fixed income so I can't go out and spend a lot of money on guns and equipment. However, I have been saving some money and selling some of my other toys to be able to get a quality rifle. I like what I see of the Browning/Winchester 1885 Hi Wall BPCR's and will most likely go that way unless someone convinces me of a better option.

I have been a bullet caster for many years and have participated in Benchrest, Practical Rifle and Silhoette events and am I a avid handguner. I am not completly new to BPCR's either as I owned one back in the late eighties/early nineties. Before I go and spend the money I thought I would ask on this forum as it seems to have knowledgeable people willing to share information.
1. How do the Italian Imports compare in quality to the Winchester/Browining Hi wall rifles?
2. How about the Italian Rolling Blocks and Sharps rifles?
3. What (if any) problems or idosyncrasies have you found with these rifles?
4. Any information on these guns that you are willing to share and you have direct experience with.
Again, Thanks
G

[Don McDowell]

In my opinion NONE of the standard finished Italian guns will stand up to a head to head quality/fit/finish contest to the Winchester,Shiloh, CSharps, Lonestar guns.

Go with the Winchester bpcr in 45-70, get a Saeco 645 mould and never look back. Outfit it with the best sights you can afford. My wife is running that rifle and bullet with 2f express bp and she shot right with the bigboys since she's had the rifle.
You do need to be cautioned tho that just buying the rifle and sights is only a portion of what the bpcr game is going to cost you. It takes trigger time to get "competitive" and that takes primer powder and lead. You also need good crossticks, and you need a spotter with good optics.

[.452dia]

[QUOTE=Don McDowell;1280726]In my opinion NONE of the standard finished Italian guns will stand up to a head to head quality/fit/finish contest to the Winchester,Shiloh, CSharps, Lonestar guns.
 
 Go with the Winchester bpcr in 45-70, get a Saeco  645 mould and never look back.  Outfit it with the best sights you can afford. My wife is running that rifle and bullet with 2f express bp and she shot right with the bigboys since she's had the rifle.
 You do need to be cautioned tho that just buying the rifle and sights is only a portion of what the bpcr game is going to cost you. It takes trigger time to get "competitive" and that takes primer powder and lead. You also need good crossticks, and you need a spotter with good optics.[/QUOTE] 

Thanks Don,
That is what I'm looking for. A couple of questions though if you don't mind? Why 45-70? Will 40-65 work or is it better to stay with the more common 45-70? Triggertime I can have as I have my own 500 yd. range, plenty of lead and casting equipment. The primers and powder I'll have to buy or trade for but I have cross sticks and a good spoting scope.
Thanks,
G

[John Taylor]

If you don't like recoil I have a rolling block in 40-50 with a heavy SS octagon barrel that has never been fired. Customer died before it was finished.