45-70 Pedersoli Gunn Trenk

[sffar]

Any interest in the Pedersoli chamber designed Trenk bullet in a single cavity mold? I've only found one maker selling them, and by all accounts his molds are terrific, but they're pretty expensive. The design is publicly available, and it's said to be a pretty safe bet in a good shooting bullet for the Pedersoli Sharps. With a group buy maybe it could be done for eighty bucks or so
http://bpcr.net/site_docs-results_sc...enk_bullet.htm

[mtnwinds]

Have you gotten a price yet?

[dromia]

Who would you look to to cut the mould, NOE?

[sffar]

WOW! Didn't think I'd ever get a response on this post.
I was thinking NOE to cut, though I'm not all that particular, as there are several excellent makers. I would imagine a SC mold, with enough buyers to absorb the setup cost would run in the $70 range.
Since the original post I was informed newer Pedersoli chambers are more standardized, so a wider variety of molds may perform well in the newer barrels. http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...=115481&page=3
Still, there are many Pedersoli's out there, and I would think someone could sell some molds of this design as the only Gunn Trenk currently available is fairly expensive.

[dromia]

Its another nice boolit mind you its not a kick in the **** of NOE's Postel so whether there would be the demand for so similar a boolit so soon after the Postel only time will tell.

[sffar]

It's true the Postell looks like an excellent mold and will cast big enough. Still, not a custom design for the (older) Pedersolis like the Pedersoli Gunn Trenk, which is what I found so appealing. I would have gone for the NOE Postell had it been available as a SC.

[montana_charlie]

whether there would be the demand for so similar a boolit so soon after the Postel only time will tell.

I'm not in the market, myself, just saw the title and looked in out of curiosity.

The Postell is available from a number of sources, some expensive and some not so expensive.
The PGT is only currently available as an expensive custom.
It would seem that most who own Pedersoli rifles are more 'cost concious' than others, which separates them from the crowd that shops with Paul Jones.

When Victory Molds was in business, he couldn't keep up with demand. How much of that was due to the PGT bullet is unclear, but many never heard of him before he started cutting that design.

Jones never offered it until after Victory went under, so there must have been some amount of demand ... even at his prices.

CM

[Landric]

It's true the Postell looks like an excellent mold and will cast big enough. Still, not a custom design for the (older) Pedersolis like the Pedersoli Gunn Trenk, which is what I found so appealing. I would have gone for the NOE Postell had it been available as a SC.

FWIW the Postell is available from Lyman as a single cavity if you are interested. We did the GB for it because there was interest in having a multi-cavity mould of that design.

[sffar]

FWIW the Postell is available from Lyman as a single cavity if you are interested. We did the GB for it because there was interest in having a multi-cavity mould of that design.

True, though I find the Lyman's to be a crapshoot dimensionally, and an NOE to be a sure thing. If there's ever interest in a rerun NOE Postell for SC, now the tooling's made, I'd probably buy one.

Anyway, what MC said is what I've been thinking. If there's a call for a less expensive mold for the Pedersoli it could be an opportunity for an additional mold maker to make a buck. I'd be all over it if my rifle's got the "older style" chamber. Hard to beat a bullet made for the gun. Still don't know if it does, as I've only slugged the barrel.

[montana_charlie]

if my rifle's got the "older style" chamber. Still don't know if it does, as I've only slugged the barrel.

What did your barrel slugging tell you?
CM

[sffar]

MC,
Early it's .4575 ish, and at the muzzle .457. So a tad smaller at the muzzle.
I know the history of this particular gun, and it was purchased at Cabella's in Maine during a sale a year or two ago. I bought it on consignment at a gun shop, but happened to meet the seller when I went to pick it up. Makes me think that if the information is accurate (and I got it first hand from PJ) about the newer Pedersoli chambers being cut more similarly to other manufacturer's Sharps chambers, then mine is probably of the newer type. I believe the grooves on the older type would be .001 larger than mine.
Consequently, since my conversation with PJ, and given that I have not cast my rifle's chamber, and that there was little initial response to this thread, my Pedersoli Specific Boolit quest has stalled. I really need to make that chamber casting.

[montana_charlie]

The PGT bullet is spec'd for a .460" diameter. If you can chamber a bullet that fat, you may (still) have an older gun. If you cannot, it pretty well says yours is the new version. I don't KNOW that new chambers are tighter, but if yours is that tight, it must be 'new'.

If yours turns out to be 'new', try to learn the manufacturing date so we can attempt to discover the year of the changeover.
(Sure wish Dick Trenk was still alive ...)

My Pedersoli does not have a factory chamber. It was deepened to 45/90, so the throat is nothing like the original.
Still, it shoots the PGT bullet as well as it shoots PJ Creedmoors. It's a good bullet design, no matter how you cut it, but in a 'new' chamber I would only use it in a 45/90 (or longer) ... due to the increased weight.

In the 'old' chamber, it sits out far enough to work nicely in a 45/70.

CM

[sffar]

OK, I'll try that with the .560 bullet. That, and a chamber cast should tell something. Maybe someone else at Pedersoli or at one of their US distributors might respond to questions about manufacturing, as Dick Trenk did.
That's pretty high praise for the Gunn Trenk bullet design, MC! There's been some interest here lately, and now maybe some of the guys shooting the longer .45 BP cartridges will take note. Also, I don't think PJ would cut the mold if it wasn't worthwhile.

[Flintlockrecord]

sffar, could you elaborate for the uninformed, what the difference is that makes this bullet useful? Also how to tell if you have an 'old' or 'new' Pedersoli.

Thanks
Ian

[sffar]

The old Pedersoli chamber–bear in mind I'm no expert–was a bit unique because of a longish freebore requiring a .460 bullet to fill it. Then a lead, which a .450 band of the right length would fill nicely. The Gunn-Trenk bullet was designed to fit the chamber as a custom bullet design. I believe other bullets can be made to work just fine, though to fill the freebore you'd need a mold to drop .460. Rumor has it the newer Pedersoli chamber has changed that freebore feature. I'm in the process of researching this, as MC suggested in an earlier post it would be nice to have a definitive answer to this (I now have the name and phone number of the fellow who's got the late Dick Trenk's position at Pedersoli.). Here are a couple of links to images of the chamber and the Gunn-Trenk bullet inside of it. Thanks to MC who posted the images!
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImage...oli~Barrel.gif
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImage...45-500_Rot.Jpg
Here's another link–thanks to MC again–describing the history of the Gunn-Trenk design. BA Wallace, another of our members, provides a nice photo of a mold as well.
http://www.bpcr.net/forum/viewtopic....t=1629&start=0
And here's a diagram of the Gunn-Trenk boolit . .
http://www.tmtpages.com/web_images/p...0%20526_gr.htm
And a description of the Pedersoli chamber . .
http://www.theopenrange.net/forum/index.php?topic=18.0
My idea for this thread had to do with wanting to save a few bucks and getting this bullet for my own gun. I was ready to ask PJ to make me one, but he informed me the newer Pedersoli Sharps chamber dimensions were different than the old–more like what's in other Sharps rifles of current manufacture. As MC and others have pointed out, though, it's an excellent design and will work in a variety of rifles. It might be a real good one for one of our forum's mold makers to cut.
Sam

[Flintlockrecord]

Do you have a rough idea of the date of change to 'new'?

Would this also apply to Pedersoli rolling block rifles?

Does anyone have a link for dating by serial # ?

Thanks
Ian

[Texinoz]

I would like one (prefer 2 cav though).
I also know 2 maybe 3 other people in this neck of Oz that I am pretty sure would be quite interested in a copy of the original PGT boolit... I can canvass numbers if this looks possible.
Would this be a small group buy or a full GB? Might struggle for numbers...
Mark

[sffar]

Texinoz,
Sounds good to me. I still want one. I figure it'll be a good bullet. There are options, as the drawing is public, so I assume a good mold maker could work off that to make the tooling. Not all makers require group buys, but if you've got several people interested, and maybe there are a few here as well, then that's a good start. NOE charges an extra $10 if there are only ten purchases iirc. MiHec might do the same, but I'm not sure. Accurate Molds would be an excellent option, too, as he has no minimum and will cut to each customer's own specs.
I made several attempts to reach the Pedersoli guy by phone, and asking about the new versus old chamber. but he never responded. I could keep trying, but it got put on the back burner. I made a chamber casting of my newer Pedersoli, and I believe the mold would work (but I'm short on experience with this stuff).

[excess650]

Your chamber cast appears to go from case to tapered leade with no freebore.

I have a Pedersoli '74 Miltary rifle from about 10 years ago, and I suspect that it has a bit of freebore ahead of the chamber, although I've not had the need to worry about it. The first (2) designs I put through it shot like gangbusters on the silhouette range, so I didn't experiment further. Those were the Lyman 457643 420ish gr designed for lever guns, and a 480gr NEI (IIRC, .458-458RN) that has a longish body and short round nose. I panlubed or lubed in a .460" die and seated 'em out to just kiss the lands over enough ffg Goex to get .080"-.120" compression with a .025" card between the boolit and powder.

My rifle has seen only occasional, informal tests on silhouettes since its lightweight, has the steel carbine buttplate, and light barrel contour that heats up quickly. Too, it doesn't have a front sight dovetail, so all shooting is done with the front blade.

[sffar]

Your chamber cast appears to go from case to tapered leade with no freebore.

So it looks like this chamber differs from the older ones such as yours, and such as the Pedersoli chamber diagrams illustrate. I don't know if my cast measurements can be trusted, but the lead allowed for .460. I tried a bullet pressed into a case that was a little out of round, but was somewhat .460 and it chambered.
Finally got some Shaver sights a month or so ago, and a .459 sizing die last week, so I guess I ought to be shooting it, and planned to load very much as you did, with a bullet touching the lands, a vege wad, and as much goex 2f powder as allows for a little compression and proper seating depth. With all the fuss that goes into loading BP 45-70 your report is encouraging–I hope my experience is as rewarding!
I'm still interested in the Gunn-Trenk mould, and would still like to see a group buy happen for it that at least allows for a single cavity block.
I wrote to Accurate Molds yesterday to ask about it, and haven't heard back yet. I'll post the answer, but I believe the design is a little outside what's allowed by his tooling.
Sam