WWII Surplus 4831

[MakeMineA10mm]

OK, I've read about a million times how Hodgdon started off selling surplus 4831 after the war (the big one) for $1/lb.

I've also done a lot of reading, studying, and loading of 30-06 for the Garand, and in addition to the advice on these gas-operated rifles to stick to 4064/4895 burning speed powder (certainly never anything slower than 4320), there is the historical anecdote about the 308 coming about because someone peered down a 30-06 case in the arsenal one day (before the bullet was put on) and realized there was all that unused space in there, so why not shorten the case...

So, that leads me to my question:

If 4831 is a WWII military surplus powder, what the hell caliber did the military load with it?!?!?

It's too slow for the 30-06; it's far too fast for the 20mm; and the only thing left is the 50BMG. It seems pretty fast-burning for the 50, but that's the only thing left I can think of that they would load that speed of powder for... (That could explain why there was such a stockpile of it too. 50s take more powder to begin with, and considering aircraft MGs, vehicle-mounted MGs, the AAA units switching over from 37mm to 50-cal towards the end of the way, etc., and I'd bet that almost as much 50-cal ammo was fired during the war as 30-06... No wonder we won!! )

Anyway, that's my guess, but I'd love to hear if anyone KNOWS what the facts are.

[Lloyd Smale]

just a guess but id say springfields

[870TC]

Not sure what the military used it for. It's the only powder I use for 30-06 and 270 w/J bullets. Also use it in the 348 Win with gas checked bullets.

[higgins]

My NRA Handloader's Guide, copyright 1969, includes an article by E.H. Harrison entitled "Handloader's Smokeless Rifle Powders", which is a rundown of powders from various sources available at the time. In the section subtitled "Current IMR powders" appears a table that lists IMR 4831 as having been made for 20mm Oerlikon, which I think was an anti-aircraft gun. Although it is listed as an IMR powder, it was not at that time listed as a current canister powder, but was available from Hodgdon as surplus. The table lists many old IMR powders, not just the ones available at the time to handloaders. Harrison was the American Rifleman Senior Technical Advisor, so I would consider him an authoritative source. In looking through my old manuals trying to find an answer to this question, I found a letter I sent to Hodgdon in 1985 asking for guidance on the difference in burning rate between the newly manufactured H4831 vs the surplus H4831. I got a response written in longhand by Bruce Hodgdon; I probably need to frame that.

You'll probably get a few of these "I read here" responses, so if they don't get to the source, I would email Hodgdon and ask them.

[lylejb]

from wikipedia

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oerlikon_20_mm_cannon

This gun used a 400-grain (26-gram) charge of IMR 4831 smokeless powder to propel a 2000-grain (130-gram) projectile at 2800 feet (850 meters) per second.[2]

OUCH....how would you like to load for that one

[odoh]

+1 Higgins post but unable to recall my source. However thats the story that came w/the 1# paper bags of surplus that were given to me. I probably remembered it because I didn't have a clue what an Oerlikon was and how to pronounce it. It didn't even look American. Gimme a break ~ that was a long long while ago

[Cactus Farmer]

"This gun used a 400-grain (26-gram) charge of IMR 4831 smokeless powder to propel a 2000-grain (130-gram) projectile at 2800 feet (850 meters) per second."

I want one of those in semi aaauto please!!!

[beagle]

Yep! The Orlikon or Hispano Suizo series of 20mm cannons.

This ammo was reproduced during VN for use by the VNAF A-1 Skyraiders but I think this time around, they used ball powder.

Bought many paper bags of old 4831 out of a keg in the back of the gunshp at $.40 a pound. Doubled bag of course./beagle

[MakeMineA10mm]

Well thank you very much. That is an itch I've been trying to scratch for some time, considering my interest in military history and handloading.

20mm Oerlikon. Makes sense. As I now think about it, that shell has less of an overbore condition, which means it would have worked better with a slightly faster powder than I presumed it was loaded with. Means 4831 makes perfect sense.

[madsenshooter]

Then what was the 50 cal MG loaded with? I pulled one down sometime ago that my belly turret gunner uncle brought home with him from gunnery school. It sat live in my grandma's knicknack cabinet for 60 years. Talk about dry powder! The inside of the case had apparently pulled all the moisture out of the powder as it was all green and the powder was very dry sticks along with quite a bit that had turned to dust.

NEVERMIND, I JUST REMEMBERED THE US MILITARY STUFF IN THE BACK OF COW. 5010

[gnoahhh]

Yes, I too went through a huge pile of surplus 4831 back in the 60's. We loaded .30/06 cartridges by sizing, re-capping and then dipping the case in a small cardboard drum of 4831, strike off the excess level with the case mouth, and seat/crunch a 150 gr. bullet. Worked like a charm. We were under the impression that one couldn't get enough of that surplus 4831 in an '06 case to go overboard in pressure. Seemed ok back then, don't know if the modern cannister grades are so forgiving.My dad and I must have fired thousands of those loads in various Springfields. Darned accurate, and killed more than a few deer.

[wiljen]

Then what was the 50 cal MG loaded with? I pulled one down sometime ago that my belly turret gunner uncle brought home with him from gunnery school. It sat live in my grandma's knicknack cabinet for 60 years. Talk about dry powder! The inside of the case had apparently pulled all the moisture out of the powder as it was all green and the powder was very dry sticks along with quite a bit that had turned to dust.

NEVERMIND, I JUST REMEMBERED THE US MILITARY STUFF IN THE BACK OF COW. 5010

IMR 5010 during wwII later with wcc860,870,871,872 as well.

[Ricochet]

In about the 1977-9 era I saw an article in the American Rifleman about DuPont introducing newly manufactured IMR 4831. It said the original application was WWII 20mm guns. Differences in the burn rates of the new stuff and the old surplus Hodgdon 4831 were noted and explained as due to changes in the burn rate of the old stuff from aging.

[AKtinman]

Here is a photo of an Oerlikon 20mm aboard the first Coast Guard cutter I was stationed on in 1966.



The cartridges were lubed by hand with vaseline and loaded into the drum magazine and then a special wrench was used to apply pressure to the magazine spring for proper feeding.

Not a high rate of fire, but lots of fun.

I was stationed on the same ship again in 1972, and the 20mm’s had been replaced by the .50 BMG.

The local gun shop sold 4831 in paper bags for $1.00 per pound, though they preferred you bring in your empty can for refill. The lawyers would have a field day with that one today!

[451whitworth]

my father bought alot of that surplus 4831 powder back in the day. i still have two Hodgdon cans of it from him and it shoots just fine.

[Bad Water Bill]

$65.00 shipped 2 cardboard cylinders of 4831 to my front door back then. But back then that was also a few days pay.

[DLCTEX]

I bought 23 pounds of it from a widow last year for $50. She said her husband had used it for years and he had been gone for 25 years (the original cardboard container said 50 lbs.). It works great in 257 Wby. , 7mm mag., 300 Win. and more. Another guy was going to give her $50 until he found out it was old. Good deal for me.

[76 WARLOCK]

I used to buy it in unlabeled 1 gallon cans in the 60's. Also, I used the 57mm recoilless rifle in the late 60's that had a powder that sure looked like 4831. The 57mm round was a brass shell that was perforated with about 1/2" holes all over it and the powder was inside a plastic bag inside the brass.

[oksmle]

Last deer season I used the last of my Grandad's 1950 era surplus 4831. Managed to load 20 cases of .30-30 with 33.0 grs of 4831 behind a Lyman #311284 FP @ 210 grs. They move out about 1850 fps. Got 3 deer & have 17 cartridges left for this year. I remember as a kid when my Uncle & Grandad bought 5 or 6 25 lb containers for about .25 cents a pound. They used nothing but cast boolits in their rifles & pistols & believed if you couldn't work up a load with either 4831 or Unique it wasn't worth messing with. It took me almost 60 years of shooting 'til I realised they were more right than wrong....
oksmle

[NoDakJak]

In 1963 or 64 I split a hundred pound keg of 4831 with two other lads. Most of my share was shot in a 243. If I remember correctly the load was 47 grains behind a Sierra 85 gr HPBT and was a pretty stiff load. We were jump shooting Jackrabbits. There were so many that in eighteen months my barrel looked like a piece of sewer pipe. I also dip charged many hundreds of 3006 rounds and seated 150 grain Sierra flatnosed 30-30 bullets for use on Jackrabbits. I can't remember where we got the load data but it was probably Hodgdon. It stated that with the max amount of 4831 that could be loaded into a 30-06 case that the pressure behind a 150 grain jacketed slug was only 38,000 psi. The max that I could get into my cases was slightly more than two grains less than their charge so it must have been a safe load. It wasn't particularily accurate im my Springfield sporter but it certainly was effective on those rabbits. I still have about a half a pound of that batch left and also an unopened can of 5010. Neil