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Thread: 303 Brit loading dies?

  1. #1
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    303 Brit loading dies?

    I tried a search but not hitting on all cylinders today. I am going to tool up for loading my No.5. I have some once fired IVI brass and am planning Hornady 174 gr .312's until our postal strike is over so I can get my LBT mould.

    Planning a Lee FC die, have one for everything. Lee case trimmer and My Lyman M die for my 32-20 will work perfectly.

    My rifle's throat is .315 and I'm not sure of the groove dia. yet as it is 5 groove.

    Wondering what die set folks would recommend. I'm familiar with Lee, Rcbs, and Lyman but know nothing about the Hornady New Dimension dies. I will be neck sizing mostly so would you buy a dedicated neck sizer or just dial back a full size a bit? I keep a full size on hand for periodic sizing and for found brass.

  2. #2
    Boolit Master Maven's Avatar
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    Canuck Bob, Take a look at this collet die set (neck sizing only) from Lee Precision:
    http://leeprecision.com/xcart/COLLET-DIES-303B.html If you can pcik up a clean, used FL .303Br. resizing die,* you'll be set for every eventuality.

    *I'd recommend RCBS because of their guarantee. I.e., if the used FL die isn't as advertised or scratches your brass, you can return it to them for a replacement.

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    Canuck Bob,
    Maven was right. Check out the Lee Collet Die Set, your brass will last a lot longer. I started with a regular die set and started having trouble with case separation. After you fire form your brass to your rifle you use the collet die and it wont touch the shoulder.

    One other benefit is you don't have to use case lube with the collet die.

    Ken

  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    You definately do not want to resize the cases after fireforming. I would however lube the cases anyway - lightly. Dry cases have too much chamber grip and could actually increase bolt face thrust - which will lengthen the cases making bolt closure a little stiff but also stressing the action more. How it works is the light lubing allows the case to settle back against the bolt face before the pressure rises too high then the case grips. As the action flexes the case can 'creap' rearward progressively with the neck and shoulder not moving at all thus spreading the strain in the case wall evenly. That's what keeps the case from stretching - the stress is kept below the yield point of the brass. Bolt face loading is to do with the hammering effect of the case head dropping back suddenly at higher pressure.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

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  5. #5
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    It may be just my guns but the mil. surp. 303-Brit guns I have don't like neck size only reloads (tried both a Lee Collet Neck Size Die & Foster Neck Size Insert Die) and I had failure to chamber problems.

    I have found that using a full length sizing die backed off just a smidgen so the shoulder headspace is just a few thousandths of an inch long and the case body diameter doesn't get all the way sized back down but does get sized down a little bit is what works for my 303-Brit guns. But they are all old mil. surp. guns and I don't have any guns in that cartridge that are commercial production guns. I am considering getting a set of Redding’s special incremented spacing shell holders specifically for the 303-brit cartridge and sizing the cases this way rather then having to test and fit adjust the die back off every time.

  6. #6
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    How are the seating dies on that Lee neck sizer set?

    I will pick-up a full size die so I can do pressure load work. I use the expanded case for checking pressure. Also I have one for found brass or purchased used brass. The IVI cases I have need to be sized around the case head as the original chamber they were fired in is much larger than mine.

    One more question, my chamber seems tight and not unusually over size. But the throat is quite long. Is that normal?

  7. #7
    Boolit Master
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    It's Redding "S" bushing neck sizer dies for all my Enfields. One set for all, that is. Once fire formed for a particular rife, that batch of brass is segregated from all others. I size the neck to just short of the shoulder leaving the unsized, larger dia. "ring" untouched. This ring serves to aligne the cartridge and boolit to throat and bore.

    Full length sizing after every firing will greatly shorten case life. Unusual chamber dimensions in mil-surp firearms are the norm. Normally speaking...

    What's the Postal strike all about? Must be good business for FedEx and UPS, eh?

  8. #8
    Boolit Master turbo1889's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canuck Bob View Post
    How are the seating dies on that Lee neck sizer set? . . .
    Excellent, the seater die that comes in the Lee neck sizer die set is not the same as their regular bullet seating die. They call it a "Dead Length Seater Die" basically the bottom of the die is not cut short like a regular bullet seating reloading die so you can set the die so the shell holder bumps up solid to the base of the die so that any slop in your press doesn't result in minute variances in seating depth and the seating depth is controlled by the adjustment knob on the top of the die only and not by how deep the die is screwed into the press (I've often wondered if one of the Foster, Redding, or CH-4D micro-meter conversion seater adjustment knobs would thread into the top of these Lee dies or not but I haven’t tried it yet). This does means it doesn't have a crimp ring and does not do any crimping but seats the bullet only so you need a seperate crimp die or a regular bullet seating die adjusted to crimp only.

  9. #9
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    One more question, my chamber seems tight and not unusually over size. But the throat is quite long. Is that normal?
    I have several Lee Enfields with seeminly tight chambers. I should make my pland throat measuring device and measure them all. That way I might be able to answer that question in part.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  10. #10
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by walltube View Post
    It's Redding "S" bushing neck sizer dies for all my Enfields. One set for all, that is. Once fire formed for a particular rife, that batch of brass is segregated from all others. I size the neck to just short of the shoulder leaving the unsized, larger dia. "ring" untouched. This ring serves to aligne the cartridge and boolit to throat and bore.

    Full length sizing after every firing will greatly shorten case life. Unusual chamber dimensions in mil-surp firearms are the norm. Normally speaking...

    What's the Postal strike all about? Must be good business for FedEx and UPS, eh?
    I looked at the Redding, must admit didn't know anything about it. I'll see if it exists locally for sure.

    I better leave the Postal Strike alone. My normally cherry red neck goes yellow hot sometimes. Resembles hostage taking for struggling small businesses at a time of a dreadful recovery from a bankrupt planetary economy just 2 years ago. Whoops. I gotta pour some water on my neck!

  11. #11
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    I picked up the LEE die set that includes the FC die. I need the FS die to treat my once fired brass first. The neck sizer will get added as I can afford it for the fire formed brass. I'll report on the dies when I use them. The neck expander mikes .309 and the internal finishes seem well polished.

  12. #12
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by 303Guy View Post
    You definately do not want to resize the cases after fireforming. I would however lube the cases anyway - lightly. Dry cases have too much chamber grip and could actually increase bolt face thrust - which will lengthen the cases making bolt closure a little stiff but also stressing the action more. How it works is the light lubing allows the case to settle back against the bolt face before the pressure rises too high then the case grips. As the action flexes the case can 'creap' rearward progressively with the neck and shoulder not moving at all thus spreading the strain in the case wall evenly. That's what keeps the case from stretching - the stress is kept below the yield point of the brass. Bolt face loading is to do with the hammering effect of the case head dropping back suddenly at higher pressure.
    Theres a small amount of cushioning by the primer cup since unless staked the primer cups always back out to the limit of the headgap, then are reseated as the casehed moves back to the boltface. I think the average large rifle primer can exert somewhere around 900 lbs of resistence.

    Brass has a certain amount of elasticity. Depending on the chamber pressure a case can contract a bit after the residual pressure in the case falls.
    I've had 7.92 cases used for light loads grow progressively shorter from shoulder to case head the pin strike and pressure from the primer forcing the case deeper into the chamber and the chamber pressure being to low to force any part of the brass case beyond its elastic limit.
    After a dozen or so firings the cases were far too loose a fit in the chamber to use for full power loads.
    The rimmed cases don't have this sort of problem with light loads.

    I usually use every fired case once as a snapper to practice my trugger pull and follow through. The pin strike alone can push the case in far enough to micro size it, these cases when necksized and reloaded chamber much more easily than when neck sized alone.

    It would be nice if a cartridge case manufacturer were to market cases made especially for handloading for the Lee Enfields.
    One reloader on another forum posted that he scrounged fired reloadable cases and segregated these by rim thickness. He said he kept a stash of cases with rim miking .068 for his matchgrade loads.
    Thats several thousandth thicker than the max thickness in the specs, but years ago I ran across a list of rim thicknesses of available .30-40 Krag ammunition and several brands had rims of .068.
    In the old days those who reloaded for the .303 often used trimmed Krag cases, because these were boxer primed, but also found that many commercial Krag cases had overly thick rims that took up slack in head gap.
    The Krag Cartridge specs also call for a max of .064, and the Krag manuals list the rim thickness as .060.
    I suspect civilian shooters prefered as thick a rim as they could get and the bolt still close on it.
    Some match shooters would lap the locking lug till the safety lug came to bear. This is said to improve accuracy.
    Due to variations in manufacture, and occasional set back, some safety lugs either already bore on the receiver or came within a few thousandths.
    In any case lapping of lugs and/or set back would call for a thicker rim to take up the slack.

    I'd noticed that some Winchester .303 ammo I used long ago seldom showed an internal annular ring after first firing. I suspect it was due to a slow burning powder and less than average chamber pressure.
    Winchester cases weren't very good for reloading despite that and after several defective cases developed lengthwise splits and I found the case walls at the splits was tissue thin, I stopped using Winchester cases at all.
    Bad lot no doubt.

    The previous owner of my SMLE threw in some Winchester ammo and fired cases. I'll probably use these after close inspection.
    With new bolt body and bolthead my head space is a hair under .068, the SAAMI max and about average for a SMLE in near new condition.

    The O-ring method for fire forming holds promise, but if you already have decent headspace its not really necessary.
    After I replaced the worn out non matching bolt of my No.4 and installed a #3 bolthead this rifle has very little head gap and a good tight chamber , fired cases look like new cases. I've not lost a single case to cracking since obtaining the replacement parts.
    Headspace does matter , group sizes were cut in half simply by tightening the headgap.
    I figure just about any properly bedded Enfield can benefit from tightening up the headgap, either by getting a longer bolt head, or much better finding a brand of cases with extra thick rims.

    PS
    I forgot all about the topic of loading dies.
    I always used the simple Lee Loader but obtained a nice set of dies from a forum member at a very reasonable price. I'd been given a Lee hand press many years ago as a Christmas present and hadn't used it since.

    The full length resizing option will allow me to sort through the buckets full of salvaged reloadable brass and any that aren't already stretched enough to worry about will be resized just enough to fit my SMLE chamber. I'll keep the cases from my No.4 segregated for use in that rifle only.
    Last edited by Multigunner; 06-22-2011 at 01:28 AM.

  13. #13
    Boolit Grand Master 303Guy's Avatar
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    Headspace does matter , group sizes were cut in half simply by tightening the headgap.
    This supports my theory that a case head coming to bear on the bolt face suddenly increase shock loading. Shock loading would increase barrel vibration and likely make it more erratic.
    Rest In Peace My Son (01/06/1986 - 14/01/2014)

    ''Assume everything that moves is a human before identifying as otherwise''

  14. #14
    Boolit Bub treadhead1952's Avatar
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    I recently got my own Collet Die set for my .303 British. The main reason was to enjoy a longer life from the cases I have by simply not full length resizing them each time since I only have the one .303 rifle. That they will no doubt be a whole lot more accurate just because they are fire formed to the chamber of my rifle is just gravy on top of every thing else. I did notice that they instruct you to run the cases in the die one time, rotate them 180 degrees and then do it again to help center things up.
    Jay
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  15. #15
    Boolit Master Canuck Bob's Avatar
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    Well, this sure has been a learning experience.

    I have sourced some once fired IVI Canadian brass. I compared one to a round from a box of REM UMC bought for function testing. The difference in neck length and geometry is quite startling. No wonder fire formed neck sizing is required for accuracy. The neck size die was not available locally and we are having a postal strike so ordering in is out until it ends.

    I always used the adjusted FS die method years ago for loading. Setting the sizer with smoked cases. My used brass needs a little squeeze at the rim end to better fit my chamber anyways. I will defineatly size carefuly to keep my brass tight for length in the new chamber for fire forming cases.

    I had no idea that the primer set back could be such a large force.

    My IVI rims measure at least .061 to .064 but the geometry of the IVI rim makes simple micing or caliper use tricky and I do not think I'm getting a true reading because of the rounded bottom edge. The REM stuff mics .060 in a single box sample.

    I'll measure headspace carefully tomorrow after the above posts.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check