Leading

[geargnasher]

my 2 cents i have shot 200 gr SWC acww for years with 231 5.5 gr no lead (in 2 or 3 1911's) went to AA #2 at think 5.0 gr and lead like a sewer pipe went back to 231 all gone. So i guess pressure or pressure spike makes a bigh deal. bye the way guns loadss brass etc all the same in above other than powder and charge. I will try a higher load of AA#2 one day see if the leading comes back but for now the powder change made the dif.

You have to balance the alloy hardness and malleability with the powder burn rate and charge weight. Also lube needs to be in the ballpark with viscosity for the application as well. And select the right primers.

Gear

[BD]

I'm going with my usual minority opinion here once again.

Have you taken a look at the throat? I've seen quite a few 1911 barrels lead in the first inch from folks sizing SWCs to .452 and shooting them in a new .451 barrel with no throat. Think about it for a minute. If you jam a .452 object with a square leading edge through a .451 hole with a square leading edge you are gonna shave some lead from the boolit every time. The easy way to check this is to clean your barrel well, then fire one round only. Then pull the barrel and take a close look at it. Maybe run one dry tight patch through. If you see lead shavings in the beginning of the barrel you'll get a clue. The cure for this is a throating reamer, or 2,000 rounds of jacketed ball, or using a TC or ogival boolit sized to the proper diameter and seated so it can alighn with the throat when chambered, (also much more accurate).

The first Kimbers after the move to NY were known for not having much, if any, throat. Sizing to .451 cured the leading in at least a dozen of them that I know of.

There is no logical reason why anyone's 1911 "needs" a boolit with a diameter larger than the throat. These are not revolvers, the throat is integral to the barrel as it is in a rifle. You need to fill the throat, and no more. A lot of guys use oversize boolits and then seat them deeper so the cartridges will chamber. The result is a boolit that's not even in the throat when fired.

As far as crimp goes, if you push a loaded round against the edge of the table with your thumb and the boolit seats deeper in the case even a little bit, you need more of something. I've probably seen bullet setback jams during matches 50 times. I'd guess I've seen the mag blown out the bottom of a 1911 by set back rounds being fired 6 or 7 times. IMHO the .45 acp should be crimped such that the leading edge of the case is just slightly pressed into the side of the boolit without any real effect on the diameter of the round behind that. I have a Lee FCD die that's been in my Pro-Jector going on 100,000 rounds that does this just fine. Unfortunately the size of that pesky carbide ring in the Lee die has not been consistent over time, and an out of spec die can get you in trouble, or if your gun needs boolits over .451 even an in spec die can get you in trouble. Any taper crimp die will work as well if used in a separate station.

I'll get off my soap box now.

BD

[C.F.Plinker]

The amount of crimp to be used with the 45ACP has varied all over the place. Presently a crimp between .468 and .471 is popular with many bullseye shooters using cast boolits. This straightens out the bell and may give a little inward crimp. Now if you step back in history a little (OK, quite a bit for the younger set) John Giles who was a noted gunsmith back in the 60s and 70s ran some tests with the H&G 68 and the H&G 130 and recommended going down as far as .463. The August 1961 issue of the American Rifleman had an article by Alton Dinan Jr. (reprinted in the NRA Cast Bullets Book) where he tested both roll and taper crimps where the mouth diameter was reduced to .460 for both types of crimp. With one mold the .460 taper crimp gave the best accuracy and with another mold and different alloy the taper crimp accuracy was .25 inches larger than the roll crimp. Both molds were H&G 130. In both cases the group fired with the uncrimped cases was at least .75 inches larger than the taper crimp group. Since he did not compare light and heavy taper crimps it would be interesting to see if there are any tests done that way before writing off the use of a heavy taper crimp.

I have a crimp die set up for a .463 crimp. I took a H&G 130 boolit that was sized to .4525, and seated and crimped it. I then pulled the boolit and made some measurements. The diameter ahead of the crimp was .4525 as expected. The diameter at the front of the crimp had gone down to .444 and tapered to .446 at the leading edge of the lube groove. The diameter at the base of the boolit was .4525 so there had not been any sizing due to the seating operation. The brass was once fired WCC 75 MATCH brass.

[Armorer]

IMHO the solution begins with an understanding of the term "leading". Way to many folks think there will never be any trace of lead left by the bullet in the barrel. I am talking handguns here. This can be true if gas checks are used, but 95% of the time there will be a lead wash in the barrel with plain based cast bullets.

Chargar, Thank you for putting this into perspective. I had some of the same misunderstandings when I first started casting and shooting boolits. I think there are a lot of times when these kinds of statements will answer many questions that people didn't even think to ask. There is a huge amount of talent and knowledge on this forum, and I am certainly glad it is available for those just starting. Sometimes you just can't find the answers in a book, and you have to talk to others who are doing this too in order to make sense of things.

My ¢2
Armorer

[Jailer]

IMHO the solution begins with an understanding of the term "leading". Way to many folks think there will never be any trace of lead left by the bullet in the barrel. I am talking handguns here. This can be true if gas checks are used, but 95% of the time there will be a lead wash in the barrel with plain based cast bullets.

You know Charger, I used to think this too when I first started. I read all the threads where people reported "zero leading" and I just couldn't figure out how they were doing it. Well I ended up trying an undersize (for cast) boolit in my 21 with a KKM barrel and I did finally acheive zero leading. I've fired hundreds of rounds now without cleaning with an appropriate sized boolit for my gun and have zero leading. You can push a dry patch through on a jag and the barrel looks like it hasn't had a shot through it so I do believe no leading is possible. I've just started playing with some 38 loads in my GP100 and so far have experienced the same results.

The amount of crimp to be used with the 45ACP has varied all over the place. Presently a crimp between .468 and .471 is popular with many bullseye shooters using cast boolits. This straightens out the bell and may give a little inward crimp. Now if you step back in history a little (OK, quite a bit for the younger set) John Giles who was a noted gunsmith back in the 60s and 70s ran some tests with the H&G 68 and the H&G 130 and recommended going down as far as .463. The August 1961 issue of the American Rifleman had an article by Alton Dinan Jr. (reprinted in the NRA Cast Bullets Book) where he tested both roll and taper crimps where the mouth diameter was reduced to .460 for both types of crimp. With one mold the .460 taper crimp gave the best accuracy and with another mold and different alloy the taper crimp accuracy was .25 inches larger than the roll crimp. Both molds were H&G 130. In both cases the group fired with the uncrimped cases was at least .75 inches larger than the taper crimp group. Since he did not compare light and heavy taper crimps it would be interesting to see if there are any tests done that way before writing off the use of a heavy taper crimp.

I have a crimp die set up for a .463 crimp. I took a H&G 130 boolit that was sized to .4525, and seated and crimped it. I then pulled the boolit and made some measurements. The diameter ahead of the crimp was .4525 as expected. The diameter at the front of the crimp had gone down to .444 and tapered to .446 at the leading edge of the lube groove. The diameter at the base of the boolit was .4525 so there had not been any sizing due to the seating operation. The brass was once fired WCC 75 MATCH brass.

Such a timely post for my situation. I've been having some feeding problems with my 21 with a KKM barrel using a NOE H&G 130 copy. I've tried several different seating depths but it was a tighter crimp that finally cured the problem. Good thing too since my 5 cavity NOE mold is a DREAM to cast with. Drops perfect boolits effortlessly so I really wanted to get this one working.

[Armorer]

[QUOTE=Jailer;1276244] Well I ended up trying an undersize (for cast) boolit in my 21 with a KKM barrel and I did finally acheive zero leading. I've fired hundreds of rounds now without cleaning with an appropriate sized boolit for my gun and have zero leading. You can push a dry patch through on a jag and the barrel looks like it hasn't had a shot through it so I do believe no leading is possible. QUOTE]

Um,..so I stand corrected? LOL.

[Jailer]

Um,..so I stand corrected? LOL.

Not at all, trust me I'm no authority on casting. My point being it is possible just depends on the gun. I have a 9mm that no matter what I do I can't get it to shoot without at least some leading.

[BulletFactory]

I'm going with my usual minority opinion here once again.

Have you taken a look at the throat? I've seen quite a few 1911 barrels lead in the first inch from folks sizing SWCs to .452 and shooting them in a new .451 barrel with no throat. Think about it for a minute. If you jam a .452 object with a square leading edge through a .451 hole with a square leading edge you are gonna shave some lead from the boolit every time. The easy way to check this is to clean your barrel well, then fire one round only. Then pull the barrel and take a close look at it. Maybe run one dry tight patch through. If you see lead shavings in the beginning of the barrel you'll get a clue. The cure for this is a throating reamer, or 2,000 rounds of jacketed ball, or using a TC or ogival boolit sized to the proper diameter and seated so it can align with the throat when chambered, (also much more accurate).

BD

I've had one heck of a time with the .40, trying everything under the sun, and I'm sure that this is what's going on with it. My gunsmith told me that it should cost between 75 and 100$ to fix this. I am getting severe leading, and these little lead rings that build up from where the casemouth rests in the chamber. They would eventually prevent the gun from going into battery. I've tried different powders, alloys, hardnesses, seating depths, crimps, OAL adjustments, expander dies, and lubes. If you try everything and still have more lead in the barrel than what hits the target, you may want to try cutting the throat.

After this much trouble, you might just be aggravated enough to cut the guns throat, lol.

[Char-Gar]

Jailer.. Read my entire post. There is more there than what was lifted. I will stick by it.