crimp and cast bullets

[blackthorn]

Seems to me that all this simply reinforces the notion that makers of reloading equipment direct thier efforts toward loading jacketed bullets rather than cast!

[geargnasher]

That's true. Some of the tools aren't really interchangeable, for example you need a different expander sometimes for cast.

I don't have the stats, but I'd venture a guess that there are FAR more sales of reloading components to Jacketed reloaders than to casters, so it only makes sense that the manufacturers cater to the larger market. At least you can buy "m" dies and various expanders in some brands.

Gear

[shoez]

Hi, I am a new member here. I have been using Lee FCD's for a long time on the .45 acp. I didn't know I was wrong! haha. I've seen no change in groups from using the taper crimp/seating die then swapping to the FCD. I will look a little closer, but I'll don't see me not using it. (I use Lee TL 200 gr swc, 230 gr TL rn, and 230 gr TL truncated cones, cast with ww's) Maybe this was a conspiracy from Lee to get me to buy the 4 hole turret press and retire my old 3 hole press. I wonder.........

[geargnasher]

Shoez, if your FCD ring isn't too small for your particular boolit/barrel/brass combination, then you won't have problems. I'll say your situation is the exception more than the rule. The issue is more associated with leading the first part of the barrel rather than accuracy.

Gear

[Bullwolf]

Hi, I am a new member here. I have been using Lee FCD's for a long time on the .45 acp. I didn't know I was wrong! haha. I've seen no change in groups from using the taper crimp/seating die then swapping to the FCD. I will look a little closer, but I'll don't see me not using it. (I use Lee TL 200 gr swc, 230 gr TL rn, and 230 gr TL truncated cones, cast with ww's) Maybe this was a conspiracy from Lee to get me to buy the 4 hole turret press and retire my old 3 hole press. I wonder.........

There is nothing wrong with what you are doing at all, if it is working well for you Shoez. Your gun may also have a smaller barrel that slugs around .450 or .451.

Alternatively, you could have a slightly a larger sizer ring in your FCD than I do.

Or you could even be using the perfect combination of a soft lead bullet, just the right powder to bump the slug up to the perfect size to fit your barrel, and an excellent Boolit lube. Mix it all together, and it works great in your gun. There are so many variables that it's hard to say arbitrarily that this is the one ultimate recipe to assemble 45acp with, or that Brand X is the best, or worst die to use for everyone in this caliber.

But that's not really what you are after. You are looking for the perfect combination for you, that works in YOUR gun.

Fortunately .45acp is a pretty forgiving cartridge to reload.

Everyone's components, and guns can vary quite a bit. That's why you should always slug your gun, and then measure the slug with a micrometer to see what size Boolit is the best fit.

Just like not all Lee FCD's are the same, neither are all .45acp barrels.

For my 45acp's, I pretty much require a .452 diameter, or slightly larger bullet for the best accuracy and fit, as well as to prevent leading.

Since my Lee FCD will swage down a .452 cast Boolit to .451 - It just does not work well for me.

This seems to be a reoccurring problem for a lot of new casters on the board, so when trying to help a person narrow down a leading problem, it is often suggested that they do not use a FCD. It is just one variable of many in the equation though.



- Bullwolf

[35remington]

Gentlemen, there's a relatively easy way to determine if your chosen taper crimp offers any bullet holding force under feeding in an automatic.

Take an unsized case, with dacron in the bottom to support the bullet in the desired location. Taper crimp it to your chosen dimension.

Now tap the case/bullet against your loading bench to simulate feeding impact. The mild support of the dacron won't influence results.

Guess what?

At the levels most apply it (.470" vicinity) the taper crimp does nothing to hold the bullet in place. Lead or jacketed.

To form a "shoulder" on the lead bullet to aid in resisting bullet movement, crimp must be much greater than commonly applied, in the .462-.465" vicinity, at the minimum, depending upon brand of case and type of bullet.

When using jacketed bullets, even a heavy taper crimp doesn't do much to hold the bullet due to the harder jacket resisting the formation of a shoulder to abut the case mouth. Even with a heavy crimp, the "shoulder" formed has a rounded edge that doesn't do much on a jacketed bullet.

When using mixed cases, taper crimping to a fixed diameter is difficult because of variation in case length and thickness. Therefore, I question whether crimping to exactly, say, .471" is possible in mixed brass with a single taper crimp setting, as actual measurement indicates this does not occur. It is possible to crimp such that, say, the short and thin cases are crimped to .470" while the longer/thicker cases are crimped somewhat more.

But mixed cases to a single dimension just isn't possible.

[35remington]

BTW, if you're gauging your ammo, as you most certainly should be when loading for an automatic, what purposed does the LFCD serve?

I've seen on other threads where the posters claim they make "more reliable" ammo with it.

These fellas were failing to gauge their ammo in the first place. Since you should be gauging anyway as a smart handloader should, this leaves little reason or purpose for the factory crimp die.

[geargnasher]

I often load ammo for specific guns that exceeds the limits of both the gauging set and the FCD. I use the barrel for a case gauge in those instances.

I also maintain that it is case tension, not crimp, that does the job in autos, much as it does in revolvers. Any "crimp" is merely a bonus.

My failsafe in the autos is to use an expander that expands about .025" deeper than the boolit will be seated, and the case springback makes it an almost perfect bottleneck inside the case and so gives a choke point right at the boolit base. It is amazingly difficult to force even an undersized, soft boolit past this ledge. That's why I use as close to a neutral crimp as possible, other things are at work to keep the boolit where it should be.

.45 ACP also has a pretty distinct taper just below where at typical 230 grain boolit base will sit, and the only time I had big problems was when a micro-groove Lee boolit cast from soft alloy and having a bevel base slipped into a case that for some reason didn't hold the boolit securely like it's comrades did, resulting in deep seating that caused a mild but spooky Kaboom that blew the grip panels off and destroyed the magazine. I also used the factory expander up until that point, and it only expands the case about 1/8" deep. After that little incident I had a custom expander plug made, which also eliminated the leading I was experiencing due to case swaging.

Some folks have and use a .45 ACP Roll Crimp die, and I think that's a pretty good idea. The extractor claw keeps the case sucked up against the breech face, anyway, and you'd have to put a murderous roll crimp on it to cause any headspace issues.

Gear

[35remington]

When I speak of "gauging" I mean checking the ammo to see if it will fit, so a case gauge or a barrel may be used, as appropriate to the specific load.

I'm just not convinced of the value of a taper crimp applied to the most common diameters as a bullet holding device. I feel it is of no help there, by actual test.

If you want to see a vicious crimp used in testing 45 ACP ammo, read E H Harrison's Cast Bullet manual found in this site's reference section.

They describe taper crimping to .460" with 45 ACP target loads. Now that, I will admit, will form a shoulder on a lead bullet that helps prevent bullet movement in feeding.

How many of us taper crimp that much?

[geargnasher]

I totally agree about the value of a taper crimp for holding any kind of projectile. I learned not to try to crimp at all when using jacketed bullets. If you tried to actually crimp the mouth into the sides of the bullet, the mouth would just crush against the copper jacket and smear, and when pulled back out of the die the mouth would be slack for the first 1/16" or more, actually ruining part of the case tension. Not a good situation.

Gear

[35remington]

Here's the taper crimp situation by the numbers:

0.009"......the wall thickness of Winchester, Federal, and R-P cases in my collection. Yes, they are the same, within about a quarter of a thousandth of an inch. This with new brass.

0.018"....two wall thicknesses. Add to 0.452" and we obtain .470." Taper crimping to this dimension applies no indentation into the side of the bullet whatsoever. No effect from the crimp.....it's merely flush against the bullet.

If we desire to have the case wall dig into each side of the bullet a full 0.004", which happens to be only the thickness of a typical sheet of 8.5 by 11 inch paper, we must taper crimp to a measured dimension of .462." That's not a lot of "digging into" the bullet per side.

And again, how many of us admit to taper crimping that much? Allowing for spring back of the brass, the case wall must be swaged into the side of the bullet somewhat more than that for the final measurement to obtain .462."

Chamfering the case mouth makes the situation worse, as it allows the bullet a "running start" at the case mouth, making it more likely the bullet can slip past the taper crimped case mouth.

If you want the taper crimp to provide some assistance in bullet retention, better start cranking down on the TC die a lot more than is commonly suggested.

With the most common recommendation as to final diameter it's of no use whatsoever in holding the bullet in place.