crimp and cast bullets

[fredj338]

The case trim length will effect the crimp far more than brass thickness. Make sure all your cases are the same length. They can vary considerably between manufacturer.

In revolvers, yes, length matters more for roll crimp. In psitols, a thicker case can certianly cause an issue as the OD will be slightly larger than thinner brass. I find the odd thicker case in ym range pickups & it will fail my case gage after loading.

[Bullwolf]

I'm not sure I understand this.
How can the thicker brass wall effect the Outside Diameter?? It will tend to swage the boolit a little more but you can't increase the OD and not have been in error on the first crimp setup.

The case trim length will effect the crimp far more than brass thickness. Make sure all your cases are the same length. They can vary considerably between manufacturer.

Perhaps I worded this poorly due to lack of sleep.

While loading up a large batch of cast 45acp boolits sized at .452....

I loaded up the first half using Winchester Brass, ran it through my dies, checked head space in my 1911 and double checked the loaded round with a case gauge. I got my taper crimp set the way I liked it, and measured at the case mouth to .473 then I locked down my taper crimp die.

I then loaded the last half using the Remington Brass. I ran it all through my same dies, set up the same way. It would not chamber in my gun. The taper crimp on the case mouth of the Remington Brass measured around .475

The only change for me was using the Remington Brass.

I ended up tightening up the crimp considerably for the batch of Remington brass. A few more partial turns of the die, and it would chamber. It then measured .473 at the case mouth.

Could I have made a mistake and locked down the dies wrong? Sure it is possible. It is also possible that the brass was a bit longer than the previous batch.

Of course that is also why we double check things too.

Either way, I easily managed to fix the problem.

I was using once fired Remington, and once fired Winchester Brass. Sadly I have loaded it all up and I did not bother to check its overall length, but I don't usually see once fired 45acp cases stretching a whole lot either, so I don't often check or trim, unless it is brand new brass.

I assumed (yes I know, always a bad idea) that the Remington brass was just thicker, and that was what was affecting my crimp. I suspect you are correct and that the Remington case length was just longer than the Winchester brass.

I just usually see long cases happen more often in bottle neck rifle cartridges, than in straight wall pistol cartridges, especially when shooting mild cast loads in 45acp.

Translation: I don't typically trim 45acp, like I do rifle brass.

I also have noticed that a taper crimp is also quite a bit more forgiving of a longer overall length, than a roll crimp is.

Your post motivated me go back and measure a few different brands of 45acp brass that I had on hand.

OAL

RP-------------.889
CBC-----------.890
IMI------------.887
PMC-----------.888
Federal-------.883
Blazer--------.887
Federal-------.887
Hornady------.887


Quite a bit of variance, for just a few different brands of cases. I sadly have loaded all of the problem brass already. . I made notes, and I will be sure to check after I fire it, to see if it will be of an abnormally long overall length.

I also notice that different kinds of brass, will seat primers differently. Some brass is easy, some requires a touch more effort, but each has its own unique feel. Since I do not hand prime, I still prefer to sort my brass and do all the same brand of head stamp at once.

One piece of Blazer 45acp with a small pistol primer pocket instead of a large pistol primer pocket, can really throw off your game if it gets mixed in with your standard brass - especially when you are using a progressive press.

I have loaded lots of mixed brass before, and I just find it is just smoother when I sort out the steel cases, the brass, the nickel cases, and military brass, and then do it all in the same batch, but that's just me.

Sorry for the confusion, and thank you for the OAL clarification Frozone. I do not wish to spread misinformation, and I am glad that you called me on it.


- Bullwolf

[mdi]

This question comes up more and more frequently now. I guess a lot of new reloaders are having problems straightening the case mouth on their auto cartridges.

I think a sticky should be made from geargnasher's last post, or at least the first 2 paragraphs. Explained very well. I learned this about a dozen or so years ago (mostly from reading and experience; visualizing the interior of a chamber during feeding).

[a.squibload]

Thanks to all, good info.
I never used to trim 44 brass, some of it I fired MANY times.
Just didn't seem to stretch.
Now I have a pistol that headspaces on the case mouth,
I'm sure the design was intended to confuse me!

I find when swaging pistol cases into boolits I get different nose filllout.
At first I weighed the cores and the cases, and measured the cases.
Didn't seem to be that much difference, but still I got different results
for a given die adjustment.
Probably due to the cases as the cores are very close to the same weight
(as I get better at casting).
I think I'll start separating cases before I start, for swaging and reloading.
And I definitely have a different perspective on crimping now.

[casterofboolits]

The most uiseless piece of reloading gear I ever bought was an RCBS 45 ACP Trim die when I first started loadin for My 1911 in 1974. It is still "new in the box" on the shelf!

Most of my 45 ACP is military and I keep it in 1,000 round lots, after five firings the brass is regulated to practice rounds.

As to crimp, just enough to remove the flair.

[Bullwolf]

Just in case anyone was lying awake at night wondering...

I pulled some of the cast 45acp Boolits that I loaded with Remington Brass.

and

I pulled some of the cast 45acp Boolits that I loaded with the Winchester Brass as well.

Over All Length on the Winchester Brass averaged pretty consistently around .888

Over All Length on the Remington Brass averaged around .887

So, the Remington Brass was not too long, if anything it was a tad shorter.

The Remington Brass that I was using was some once fired Golden Saber HP fodder. The Brass also happens to be nickel plated. It was just a tad thicker than my Winchester Brass was. Perhaps there was a thicker plating of nickel on the outside of the case, or maybe Remington 45acp brass from that lot just came out thicker.

I could not really mic the thickness of the brass accurately, without destroying the cases, and cutting them so I could open them up really, but I could come close enough with calipers to tell it was a little bit thicker than the Winchester Brass that I had previously been using.

For the record, I ran my micrometer over the pulled .452 cast Boolits, they are all still .452. Seating, taper crimping, and then gently pulling the rounds in the thicker Remington Brass (using a kinetic bullet puller) has not re-sized my cast Boolits at all. My default ingot alloy has a tad more Linotype in it than is really necessary for 45acp though, and it makes the Boolits a bit tougher than they need be for the mild 45acp cartridge.

I can also shoot plain old Air Cooled Wheel Weight lead just fine in 45acp, and it is even easier to re-size. In general, I have found the 45acp to be a pretty forgiving cartridge to load for.

I also have an old RCBS Case Trimmer 2, that has yet to trim a piece of 45acp brass. Maybe someday I will cut some 308, or some 30'06 down to 45, but not today.

I have mostly used it for rifle brass like .223, and bigger 30 caliber stuff. I did use it to make some 38 S&W cases, that I cut down from .357 brass though.

Just and update for you guys, and thank you for listening.

Cheers


- Bullwolf

[myg30]

First, Bullwolf, I need to know if you polished them babys up for the picture pose, or do you just load the prettest ammo I've ever seen ? Great lookin stuff !

I always learn something new when I get the time to read here. Never used a FCD, but must have always over crimped the cases do to wrong info when learning to reload pistol. This is CHANGE I can appreciate !!
Keep up the good work !

Mike

[geargnasher]

Bullwolf, I feel it is very important to reiterate, in the light of the OP, that you are NOT using an FCD on your brass, and that's why you aren't getting boolit swaging.

As an experiment, load one of your thicker-walled, unprimed, sized, and expanded junk cases with one of your boolits, then change out the taper-crimp die for the Lee FCD, pull a boolit and measure it. You'll see why people have problems after using that die.

Gear

[1bluehorse]

I reload 45 colt not ACP. I've read so much of this "the carbide factory crimp die is swaging my cast bullets down to .429-.451-.357 (name your caliber) so I thought I would pull some of my reloads that were crimped using the LCFCD. The 45 cal boolits were all sized with a Star sizer at .452. Pulled boolits still measured .452....pulled some 44mags that were sized at .430, crimped with the LCFCD, still measured .430
Maybe others are having a problem but according to what I measured I'm not. I also have no problems seating and crimping with just the seater die.

[Frozone]

first, the pistol fcd has a carbide sizer ring in the base which is exactly the same size as the one in the sizer die.

you are wrong!

[Bullwolf]

First, Bullwolf, I need to know if you polished them babys up for the picture pose, or do you just load the prettest ammo I've ever seen ? Great lookin stuff !!

Mike

I do polish them up a bit. Tumble Lubed Bullets spinning around in a tumbler full of well used corn cob media get sorta gunky.

I am occasionally anal enough to take a rag and polish the Tumble Lube off the outside of the bullets before, or after I tumble them. In this case I did just that for the picture.

Also in my experience my old Linotype alloy, when cast at just the right temperature, not too cold and not quite frosty, comes out really shiny and stays that way for quite a long time.

It makes a hard bullet though which is not always desirable, but it is quite resistant to surface oxidation over time, unlike my straight wheel weight lead.

The problem with my Linotype (heck it could have even been Mono type) is that I never really knew exactly what the alloy composition was of the individual pieces of type, before I went and melted it into ingots. It tends to cast a bit on the pink colored side, making me think it has some Bismuth in it however.

Gear has mentioned quite a bit about printing type,and probably knows a lot more than me about the subject.

My Grandfather ran a print shop, and I inherited quite a bit of his old "Linotype" offset printing type when the medium became obsolete. I still alloy it with Wheel Weights when I want an especially hard, or shiny Boolit.

- Bullwolf

[Bullwolf]

Bullwolf, I feel it is very important to reiterate, in the light of the OP, that you are NOT using an FCD on your brass, and that's why you aren't getting boolit swaging.

As an experiment, load one of your thicker-walled, unprimed, sized, and expanded junk cases with one of your boolits, then change out the taper-crimp die for the Lee FCD, pull a boolit and measure it. You'll see why people have problems after using that die.

Gear

Gear is correct, and I also am guilty of drifting a bit off topic.

I did not, and DO NOT use a Lee FCD on my brass. I had only mentioned that I did not get bullet swagging down from my pulled cast Boolits from the slightly thicker brass due to an earlier comment from Frozone.

The Lee FCD has a smaller inside diameter, and I have no desire to swage down my .452 cast Boolits, since they are sized perfectly for my 45acp bore.

My nice shooting, loaded rounds head space fine, but they do not fit easily in the Lee FCD. I have zero inclination to shove one of my rounds in the Lee FCD and size it down more than it needs to be. Other than for an experiment, or to prove a point, there is just no reason to do it.

I am a big believer in the old saying... If it aint broken - Don't fix it.

If the Lee FCD works great for others, that's cool for them, but it seems like it's use is meant to address a problem, that I do not have.

I already have a RCBS Carbide sizer die, I don't really see the need to use another sizing die, a second time during my crimping stage when using cast Boolits.

I also do not like when the FCD is meant to be used. I size my brass, then I flare it, and I use a generous case flare to make sure I do not shave, or size down my cast Boolits. I do not understand why I would want to size the now loaded round down again. (heck that was my first step after all, why do it again with the boolit in the case neck?) after flaring and gently seating a cast Boolit, and then removing the bell from the case flare with a taper crimp die, why would I even need to re size my brass again, and risk swaging down my loaded cast Boolit?

I will just keep the Lee FCD die on the shelf in case I ever find a use for it with FMJ ball ammo. Or alternatively, maybe one day it will get put to use as a brass bulge buster.


- Bullwolf

[prs]

I have Lee 4 die sets in three hand gun calibers; 38spcl, 45 Colt (LC), and 40 S&W. In all three of those the FCD die's carbide case sizer is larger than the one in the deprime/full length sizer die. The FCD case sizer ring should not make firm contact with the case unless there is a problem. One exception to that observation is when using .454" boolits in the Colt revolver cartridges with the M die that fits them, then the FCD sizer does make contact - but with that boolit size I crimp and seat in the standard die. Even with roll crimp rounds, but especially with taper crimps, less is more. With taper crimps, the consensus now seems to be none is more.

prs

[Johnny_Cyclone]

Bullwolf,

How about knocking the carbide ring out of the FCD, and just using it to close the case flare.

Leave the seating die set to only seat. That way if one runs into a brass thickness issue they can just adjust the carbide-less FCD to modify the crimp. This leaves the seating die setting alone, and it would remain just where they wanted it for OAL..?...no boolit swaging, more range brass-pick-ups flexibility, and a spare sizing ring should they ever score up the carbide ring of the station #1 sizing die??

Just a thought

I hate to see a die just setting there while the others haft'a work for a living..

[Dale53]

I disagree with the consensus regarding taper crimping. I taper crimp to a very specific dimension of the mouth of the case (.470"). The taper crimp serves at least TWO purposes: first and most evident is that it removes the case flare (necessary when seating cast bullets), second, it prevents deep seating when the bullet strikes the loading ramp of the barrel. This second is a necessary safety precaution. Deep seating in the short .45 ACP case can raise pressures to the point that it can blow out cases and damage the pistol and operator.

.470" crimp standard does NOT damage bullets, helps feeding, and eliminates telescoping of bullets (deep seating) when the bullet slams into the loading ramp.

I ran IPSC matches for five years (40 matches with attendance running 50-60 shooters). Those who taper crimped to .470" had NO problems such as I am discussing and those who did not often did. I have personally put around 200,000 rounds of .45 ACP downrange and consider that of some experience.

Dale53

[geargnasher]

you are wrong!

Nope. I have had the FCD in .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and 9mm, and they all had the same exact carbide ring in both the sizer and the FCD. Yours may measure different, and if that's true I guess that makes what both of us wrong.

I'll make you a deal. I won't say they're identical if you won't say they aren't, because apparently there are significant production variances in them. Fair enough?

Gear

[Bullwolf]

OK I had read this thread often enough that I decided to do the Lee FCD test.

I ran an empty piece of cartridge brass through my RCBS Carbide Sizer die it comes out around .465 at the case mouth

That will fit easily in my Lee FCD die without touching the sides hardly at all - it just glides through.

When I load cast Boolits, I flare the case out, seat, and then usually taper crimp my 45acp down to .473 at the case mouth for my guns, or .471 for 100% reliability in others guns.

.465 seemed a bit too tight to be running through the Lee FCD after I have seated a cast Boolit .

.473 brass case mouth
down to
.465 brass case mouth

Something has to give I figure, and it will likely be my .452 sized cast lead Boolit.

So I sit down and decided to waste one of my precious cast lead Boolits, and make a dummy cartridge. I might as well since I have all the dies out anyways at this point, and now I want to know for sure.

I lubed and ran a really hard .454 Linotype Boolit through my Lee sizer, and it now mics at .452. This is a really tough boolit that is 1 part Linotype, and 2 parts Wheel Weights, likely much harder than your typical 45acp cast lead Boolit will ever need to be.

I flared and seat it in my dummy case. my seat die just barely removes the bell of the flare off the case.

Now the case mouth mic's at .480 after seating with no crimp having been applied.

I removed the seat component in the Lee carbide FCD, back the crimp off quite a ways, and I just let the carbide ring re size the whole cartridge. It took a fair amount of effort, I assume because I did not lube the case.

I ran a micrometer over the outside of the case mouth again at this point.
I was very surprised to see it come out at .473 and it fits nicely in my favorite 45acp barrel. I was not expecting that at all. I really thought it would size it down much smaller, like say around .470 or smaller diameter.

Now I wasn't so sure about how this would all turn out , so I pulled the Boolit on the dummy round gently using my old kinetic bullet puller, and ran the Micrometer over it. Presto a .451 diameter lead Boolit now.

I wasn't just sizing the brass, I also re sized my really tough cast Lino Boolit through the brass using the Lee FCD.

To be fair, when I taper crimp with a normal die I just do the case mouth though and not the whole bearing surface of the bullet. The Lee FCD re sizes almost the whole length of the cartridge.

It wouldn't have been a bad thing if I was going to load, and shoot jacketed ammunition. My 1911 prefers .452 not .451 cast lead Boolits though. Heck, some folks out there even go as large as .453 -.454 diameter.

I know can say with 100% certainty that my Lee FCD will mess up a .452 or larger cast lead 45acp Boolit, and swage it down to .451

I have seen it first hand in 45acp now to my own personal satisfaction.

Sometimes you just have to prove it to yourself. They say seeing is believing. My results echo the same thing that the experts have already been saying on this thread. The Lee FCD will swage down oversize cast lead Boolits.

As a sizer die, I don't have a problem with the FCD die, it does almost the same thing as my initial Sizer/De-priming die. After running this test I would use it now to reload target full metal jacket ammunition, if I had to.

However I will NOT be using it on seated cast lead Boolits EVER, especially after this little experiment.

Feel free to run the same experiment for yourself.


- Bullwolf

[Bullwolf]

Bullwolf,

How about knocking the carbide ring out of the FCD, and just using it to close the case flare.

Leave the seating die set to only seat. That way if one runs into a brass thickness issue they can just adjust the carbide-less FCD to modify the crimp. This leaves the seating die setting alone, and it would remain just where they wanted it for OAL..?...no boolit swaging, more range brass-pick-ups flexibility, and a spare sizing ring should they ever score up the carbide ring of the station #1 sizing die??

Just a thought

I hate to see a die just setting there while the others haft'a work for a living..

I have heard of people doing exactly what you have suggested.

The thing is... I have a 4 piece RCBS carbide die set in 45 acp

I have two types of crimp dies, a roll crimp die and a taper crimp die.

I use the roll crimp die backed way off, as just a bullet seating die. Then I have the seating stem removed from my RCBS taper crimp die, and I taper crimp after seating as a second step.

I like the idea of the Lee FCD, (Heck, it sounded good enough on paper to purchase in the first place) but... I really have no use for it.

I will just stick with using my proven RCBS die combination for cast lead Boolits as I am used to them, and they work consistently and create accurate ammunition that is a joy to shoot.

I can live with occasional little taper crimp adjustments from time to time when I am using oddball brass.


- Bullwolf

[geargnasher]

If you used a softer, less springy boolit than that lino boolit it might come out .450". I don't know, I seem to have the only FCD dies they made that have the same ring as the sizer. Thanks for taking me up on the challenge, most people here prefer to just think I'm crazy rather than actually test it for themselves.

The FCD is great for J-words, though. It is quick and near absolute insurance that your cartridges will chamber, and for competition jacketed ammo it's hard to beat. It also helps iron-out any off-center bulges from seating the bullet crooked.

Gear

[Bullwolf]

If you used a softer, less springy boolit than that lino boolit it might come out .450". I don't know, I seem to have the only FCD dies they made that have the same ring as the sizer. Thanks for taking me up on the challenge, most people here prefer to just think I'm crazy rather than actually test it for themselves.

The FCD is great for J-words, though. It is quick and near absolute insurance that your cartridges will chamber, and for competition jacketed ammo it's hard to beat. It also helps iron-out any off-center bulges from seating the bullet crooked.

Gear

No Problem Gear, sometimes you just need to test things for yourself.

It does seem like it would work good with jacketed ammo, and now I might be more prone to use it for just that. Now that I have broken down and actually played around with the FCD. If I hadn't tried it out, I would be more likely to stick with what I already know and am comfortable with.

I had thought that the FCD die might be less forgiving on a less resilient Boolit too, like say stick on wheel weight lead, but I didn't have a softer slug around to test with.

They say one picture is worth a thousand words.

Yes, I do measure with a Micrometer, but the mic photographs quite a bit poorer than the digital calipers.


- Bullwolf