"Bulk" Powder

[smokemjoe]

I have used 3 grs. in black powder rifle loads for a duplex load. burns the black powder faster and cleaner. Duckkiller, your giving our age away. Joe

[870TC]

On a side note, if the fine powdery dust from the Bulk shotgun powder granules gets separated from the rest of the powder granules, it supposedly becomes a high explosive. So be a little careful around old cans of this that may have naturally separated over the years.

[w30wcf]

I was given 4 cans of DuPont Bulk Smokeless several years ago. I used Phil Sharpe's instructions for screening it.....separating the coarse grains from the medium and fine grains.

I used 6 grs of the coarse in 30-30 "Short Range" replication loads (125 gr cast bullet) and it worked very well giving around 1,200 f.p.s. and great groups.

I used a capacity load of the medium grained powder in the .22 Hornet. That turned in 1/2" 50 yard groups at 2,000 f.p.s. with 45 gr bullets. Outstanding!

w30wcf

[nanuk]

I was actually thinking of any modern ML that could use 150gr of black.

if bulk is volume for volume replacement for BP and can be used in Old Shotguns (perhaps even wrapped?) without undue pressure, then why would it not produce the same pressure as BP in a ML?

the combustion chamber is the same regarding both... a shotshell has a "full" chamber, as does a ML...

that is why I asked

[Dale53]

nanuk;
ML rifles and shotguns are two entirely different animals, just like smokeless ones.

I suggest that you do NOT try to use bulk smokeless in a ML rifle without data.

That powder was made nearly 100 years ago. Some chemical processes of those years were not stable. Prudence would suggest NOT doing what you suggest.

Dale53

[9.3X62AL]

With Trail Boss and SR-4759 generally available these days, my thoughts are that using the Dupont Bulk powder isn't worth the risk. I would find a collector and send it their way.

[nanuk]

That powder was made nearly 100 years ago. Some chemical processes of those years were not stable. Prudence would suggest NOT doing what you suggest.

Dale53

Dale, I don't have the powder, I was just asking to try to understand the theory.

Here is why I still have some trouble wrapping my head around this.

lets say you have a 50-90, and you load 90gr black and get X pressures, then you load a full case of some slow powder, like H870 or RL25... the pressures would be same or lower so why can't you sub in a ML?
(now, don't go picking apart my example. I only picked them for theory. but I have found data elsewhere that crosses over pretty much exact.)

Pressure is pressure, pressure rise is pressure rise. if the pressure is the same, but the rise is longer, then the safety issue is mitigated.

Has anyone even tried it? I know a couple guys up here tried it on a whim, but they didn't have any means of checking pressures. And it didn't blow up their guns.

my ML is rated at 150gr of powder.... no mention of max bullet weight. So it can easily handle the pressures produced by 90gr of BP.

[Dale53]

nanuk;
It is really very simple. I don't "experiment" with powder that has no data to judge pressures when used in a particular mode. Shotguns are not rifles and react to pressure differently (shot compared to solid bullets, etc). It may be perfectly safe but I don't KNOW that. What you can get away with, one time, is NOT the criteria. What is SAFE is the question.

Logic does not always apply when handling powder, much less 100 year old bulk smokeless that has little data available. Just ask any ballistician (I'm NOT a ballistician).

Let's all be prudent and BE SAFE...

Dale53

[wiljen]

The issue I see is that the powder was designed to work with small charges in a mildly if at all compressed environment. Using it in a muzzleloader where you intentionally tamp it to get the most possible compression is a drastic departure from use in a shotshell. The other thing is a shot shell has a certain amount of lateral flex to the shell as it conforms to the chamber wall that is not present in a muzzleloader so again, the powder may react differently to the change in confinement.

Bottom line is risking your gun and your health to find out if it works is a poor idea. I suspect somebody in the 1930s probably tried it and found out it was a poor idea or it would have been marketed as a BP substitute long before now.

[felix]

Black powder cannot deliver any more than 15K peak pressure because of its alloyed nature. The peak for smokeless? 100K is not out of the question, and depends upon its elemental components which are made into a new chemical for its basic structure. Ignore coatings for this topic. ... felix

[Dale53]

felix;
Not to be argumentative, but black powder has been pressure checked under extreme circumstances of over 100,000 psi.

Dale53

[felix]

Dale, yes, when totally confined/restrained. ... felix

[nanuk]

as long as the Subs are still available, I won't be trying an "Experiment" like this.
especially with really old powder.

the problem up here is BP is getting very hard to get, and very expensive when you can find it. Shipping HazMat charges are huge. and there is nothing local.

I worry that the Subs will soon fall into the same problems.... after all, I have read that the Subs contain pretty much the same products as BP, and as soon as our Gov't figures that out, it will become rare also.

I hope someone comes up with a "True" Smokeless powder Sub before that happens.

[BerdanIII]

Duckiller:

There are some loads in Ken Waters/Ned Roberts (or vice versa) book, but they are for various Schuetzen calibers and all call for the powder to be sifted to eliminate the fines. Do you want them?

A friend of mine burned up can of Bulk a few months ago in a .38 Special. I don't know if he sifted it. The loads struck me as a little on the warm side; a 158-gr. boolit and about 4.5 grains, if I remember correctly.

[BerdanIII]

DuPont Bulk Shotgun Data

From: Lyman No. 38

.22 Hornet
#225438 (43-gr) - 4.1 gr.
Unique - 3.9 - 1450 fps est.


.22-250
#225438 (43-gr) - 8.0 - 1700 fps est.
SR4759 - 9.0 - 1700 fps est.
IMR4227 - 8.5 - 1800 fps est.

.250-3000
#257420 (65-gr) - 8.5 - 1200 fps est.
Bullseye - 4.9 - 1100 fps est.

.45-70
#457127 (210-gr) - 6.5 - 1000 fps est.
Unique - 7.0 - no velocity given

From: The Complete Guide to Handloading

.32-20 WCF Revolver
47-gr. roundball - 4.0 - 600 fps

From: The Breech-Loading Single-Shot Rifle

"To sift out this very fine-grained powder, purchase two wire tea strainers, one with 28 to 30 meshes to the inch, and the other 18 or 20 meshes to the inch. Be certain of these spacings as they are important in properly grading the powder granulations.

Now take the smallest mesh strainer, fill it about two-thirds full of Du Pont Bulk Shotgun Smokeless just as it come from the can, holding the sieve over a large pan, and shake it gently. In this way, the very finest grained powder will be sifted into the pan. Repeat this process until you have sifted the entire canister of powder with the 28 to 30-mesh sieve. You will find that about one quarter of the powder passed through this mesh sieve. Put it in an empty, plainly labeled canister, marking it "FFg - NOT for use in rifles!". This finest granulation burns so rapidly that it develops much too high pressures for safety in rifles.*

Next, using the 18 to 20-mesh strainer, again sift the powder which did not pass through the 28 to 30-mesh sieve, putting that collected into another canister to be labeled "Fg". This will be the major portion of the powder, and that which remains, being too coarse to pass even the 18-mesh strainer, should be placed in a third canister and marked "Cg".

.28-30 - 12.0 to 13.0 - Bulk Cg - Ideal 285221 (135 gr) - breech-seated ahead of shell
.32-40 - 12.0 to 15.0 - Bulk Cg or Fg - Ideal 319162 (185 gr), 319289 (185-gr) - breech-seated ahead of shell
.32-40 - 13.0 - "sifted", no granulation specified - Pope 200-gr - muzzle-loaded.

*In Major Ned H. Roberts and the Schuetzen Rifle - "That very fine 'F.F.G.' powder can be worked up into good loads for revolver cartridges if you are careful; it is touchy and quick tempered, so start with a small load for your revolver cartridges."

Based on the data above for a roundball in the .32-20, I would say that my memory is faulty on the charge my friend used in the .38 Special.