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Thread: Project - PID on Lee Pro 4 20 furnace

  1. #161
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehouseproduct View Post
    So, would this work for lots cheaper than what people have listed?
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-PID-...item4aaf277ec8
    Yes, that would work as the PID; however, it isn't specific on the ratings of the thermocouple included. You also still need to get an SSR.

    If the thermocouple is the same one listed here: http://www.nishbg.com/product_info.p...46&language=EN, it will only regulate between 0°-400°C (32°F - 752°F). This means you will need to buy a different thermocouple.

    This means, at most, you will save about $10 to order it from China.

  2. #162
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    It would be cheaper. But do a little more reading on which PID outputs.

    This unit uses a relay output. That limits it's effectiveness. It is a Very good value however. That K type TC would cost ~ $3.50 extra.

    I did a little more reading of the specs. You'll need an external relay, the internal is only rated 3A, Most melters are more than that.
    You won't be able to use an SSR without a separate power supply. So it will have to be a contactor type mechanical with a coil voltage in your input power range.

    And I can't see where it can be changed from centigrade display units, it may but I didn't see it.
    Last edited by Frozone; 09-29-2011 at 06:04 PM.

  3. #163
    Boolit Bub Gisli's Avatar
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    I just finished my PID controller. I used a Sestos controller of Fleabay and a K type thermocouple with a 25A SSR. This was mounted in an old PC PSU case. My Lee pot plugs into the PSU.
    This is the first time I have ever known the actual temperature of my lino. I did a test run
    on the balcony and cast some 150 Lee soupcans. The first thing that the Controller tought me was not to throw the sprue and wrinkled bullets straight back into the pot. The pot is a Lee Pro IV and only takes abt. 10 lbs of lead and I actually saw how the temperature fell down to 350-360° C from 371° C (700F) when I dropped the sprue and bullets back in.


    Thank you for a great idea.

    Gisli

  4. #164
    Boolit Master
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    Used PC power supply as a case! That's an excellent idea! And I'd bet that a local PC repair store would just about "give-away" a dead one..... Lee
    Been paddlin' upstream all my life, don't see no reason to turn around now.

  5. #165
    Boolit Master thehouseproduct's Avatar
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    OK, found this kit that might be helpful.....
    http://thermomart.com/index.php?rout...&product_id=73

  6. #166
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    I really enjoyed reading this thread as it is very informative. Please understand that I am not being cynical nor do I want to discredit anything written about using a PID. But . . . we're making bullets here. I've been making them for over thirty years . . . successfully. For about twenty of those years I made them with a 10lb. cast iron Lyman Lead pot & a propane torch mounted under it & a Lyman lead dipper. Made great looking bullets that shot extremely well.
    Still using the first mold being a Lyman 358156-GC. Wish that I still had my 10lb. cast iron lead pot cause I still have a propane torch. Lyman still sells those pots.
    I liked this thread and thought that it was pretty cool. But we have to remember that casting bullets can be kept very simple with very good results. It can actually be kept very simple if you use a gas stove in your kitchen with a range hood that exhausts through the roof, that & a lead pot will do the trick. High tech is definitely cool if one has the time & money. Conservative is the coolest. Making something really neat from nothing. I started casting my own bullets over thirty years ago because it saved me a lot of money (I had a wife & two children to feed) & gave me very good accuracy.
    The PID is really cool and I wouldn't mind hooking one up to my Lee 10 pounder but to the novist just starting out on a budget, keep it simple. Remember, a ten pound lead pot & a propane torch will turn out some "High Tech" boolits. I cast thousands out of that old lead pot.
    Have a nice day.
    Last edited by Pigslayer; 10-18-2011 at 05:54 PM.

  7. #167
    Boolit Master
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    Mr Slayer,

    Are you making pistol bullets for relatively short range. Or are you making 535g rifle bullets for upwards of 1000 yds shooting.

    Huge difference in what is acceptable.

    For my Cowboy action shooting, I'm dropping bullets as fast as I can and it really matters not how consistent they are.

    But for my Falling Block Winchester High Wall and 1874 Sharps, the bullets need to be PERFECT. Or as close as humanly possible. A few grains difference or a harder or softer cast because of a relatively large temperature change can hurt accuracy at these ranges.

    If you are dropping 115g bullets, the change in lead volume in a 10 or 20 pound pot isn't that great. But if you are dropping a double 535g bullet, the volume drops greatly and the temperatures fluctuate wildly.

    You see, some folks shoot guns just to have something to do on Sunday morning. If it goes BANG and there is a hole somewhere on the paper, they are satisfied. And there is certainly nothing wrong with that.

    But then there are us that will constantly chase the holly grail. I can remember when I was all silly when my hunting rifles keep 3 shots on a pie plate at 100 yards. Then I got into varmint rifles and 1" or less at 100 yds was the goal. Then I moved up to Benchrest and if the gun couldn't literally put them into one ragged hole at 100 yards I became terribly despondent.

    Same thing with cast bullets. If my 45-70 rifles can keep them withing a couple inches at 500 yards, I'll do whatever I think will help to get it there.

    I hope this helps you understand why we are chasing the holly grail.....Thanks!
    Roy B
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    www.rvbprecision.com

  8. #168
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbertalotto View Post
    Mr Slayer,

    Are you making pistol bullets for relatively short range. Or are you making 535g rifle bullets for upwards of 1000 yds shooting.

    Huge difference in what is acceptable.

    For my Cowboy action shooting, I'm dropping bullets as fast as I can and it really matters not how consistent they are.

    But for my Falling Block Winchester High Wall and 1874 Sharps, the bullets need to be PERFECT. Or as close as humanly possible. A few grains difference or a harder or softer cast because of a relatively large temperature change can hurt accuracy at these ranges.

    If you are dropping 115g bullets, the change in lead volume in a 10 or 20 pound pot isn't that great. But if you are dropping a double 535g bullet, the volume drops greatly and the temperatures fluctuate wildly.

    You see, some folks shoot guns just to have something to do on Sunday morning. If it goes BANG and there is a hole somewhere on the paper, they are satisfied. And there is certainly nothing wrong with that.

    But then there are us that will constantly chase the holly grail. I can remember when I was all silly when my hunting rifles keep 3 shots on a pie plate at 100 yards. Then I got into varmint rifles and 1" or less at 100 yds was the goal. Then I moved up to Benchrest and if the gun couldn't literally put them into one ragged hole at 100 yards I became terribly despondent.

    Same thing with cast bullets. If my 45-70 rifles can keep them withing a couple inches at 500 yards, I'll do whatever I think will help to get it there.

    I hope this helps you understand why we are chasing the holly grail.....Thanks!
    I most certainly meant no disrespect but I feel that you may have taken some. Actually as far as being a good shot goes, I can compete with just about anyone. With my hunting rifles I cut bullet holes at 100 yards consistently. I can put three shots with my 7MM within the space of a mans little fingernail at 100 yards. I shoot flintlock and at fifty yards with open sights can put three rounballs in a 2" circle. With my .45 long colt at 15 yards I can take the center completely out of the target.
    I used to shoot 500 yard match. My shots always stayed within a 3" circle at that range. I think my very best shot was at a groundhog at 600 yards in a 10mph wind with my .270 winchester. My competitive brother-in-law wouldn't speak to me after that.
    As far as bullet weight, they all differ. Even with modern jacketed bullets from Nosler, Barnes, Hornaday, Speer & Sierra. If I'm shooting to compete I always weigh my bullets. I do doubt very much if your shooting 2" groups at 500 yards but then that is just my opinion especially if you are using open sights. In fact with open sights I adamantly doubt it.
    My post was not to discredit you in any way. But shooters new to casting & general shooting, and being naive' may be led to believe that they have to have every new & innovative gadget on the market or their quest to join in the fun of shooting will be a fruitless venture. Again my post was not to take away from your marvelous addition to the generic casting furnace but only to slow the "new Guy" down a bit and to start with the basics. I didn't mean to offend you. Sometimes people get in over their head rather quickly.
    I've been shooting since I was six years old thanks to my dad. I'm 59 now. I do a lot of black powder now since high powered rifles have become less than challenging & in essence . . . boring. I used to make some rather incredible shots in 'nam but then that is not really what needs to be talked about on a forum. Even the center fire black powder cartridges have become less than intriguing due to mastering.
    I shoot flintlock mostly anymore because that is the "Final Frontier" for me as far as shooting goes. I shoot roundball only and those are cast with a basic Lee mold. I was at the Rod & Gun club several weeks ago & had shooters on either side of me with modern "In Lines" with variable scopes mounted on them. They were both shooting sabots with pre-determined store bought charges. I know that those sabots are within a couple of grains of each other in weight. I know, because I've weighed various lots of sabots. These guys were all over the target at fifty yards. I was shooting a hand cast wheel weight roundball out of my hand made (by me) Issac Haines rendition of a flintlock rifle with 80 grains of FFG blackpowder and putting three shots in a 2" circle at fifty yards with "Primitive" sights with these fifty-nine year old eyes. Sometimes one needs to start out with the basics. It's where the shooters new to this craft and I do say "Craft" need to start. That was my only message . . . and not meant to offend.
    Last edited by Pigslayer; 10-18-2011 at 07:32 PM.

  9. #169
    Boolit Master
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    No offense taken..........This is a place for discussion and to have fun!

    I do doubt very much if your shooting 2" groups at 500 yards but then that is just my opinion especially if you are using open sights.
    I should clarify, 6X William Malcomn scopes





    I wish I could do that with open sights.............

    Sounds like you are having as much fun as the rest of us with your shooting, and some good shooting it sounds like you are capable of!

    But I'm concerned that once you get a rifle or type of rifle shooting well, you move DOWN the technology ladder. Next thing on your list after the flint lock will be a sling shot...............

    Anyways, always great to share in the conversation.

    Thanks
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  10. #170
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbertalotto View Post
    No offense taken..........This is a place for discussion and to have fun!



    I should clarify, 6X William Malcomn scopes





    I wish I could do that with open sights.............

    Sounds like you are having as much fun as the rest of us with your shooting, and some good shooting it sounds like you are capable of!

    But I'm concerned that once you get a rifle or type of rifle shooting well, you move DOWN the technology ladder. Next thing on your list after the flint lock will be a sling shot...............

    Anyways, always great to share in the conversation.

    Thanks
    When I & my brothers were kids we used homemade slingshots with a fork taken from a tree and strips from a rubber inner tube> I was deadly with it. We only had one rule. when firing a nut or a bolt instead of a large pebble, we had to yell "whistler" first. I put my brother in the hospital with a 20 yard shot using a 3/8" nut. It seems that I have damaged your ego. I am sorry for that . . . I really am.

  11. #171
    Boolit Master
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    It seems that I have damaged your ego. I am sorry for that . . . I really am.
    Wow, you don't know me well. All of this is just fun and away to relieve my high pressure "real" job. The last thing my ego revolves around is my shooting........Just look at most of my scores!.........
    Roy B
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    www.rvbprecision.com

  12. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbertalotto View Post
    Wow, you don't know me well. All of this is just fun and away to relieve my high pressure "real" job. The last thing my ego revolves around is my shooting........Just look at most of my scores!.........
    I apologize for my satire I really do. I took it too far. I'm sure that you are an excellent shot & I praise you for that. It's a wonderful sport which out of all the things that I love . . . this is one that I love the most. I work in Washington D.C. & Baltimore City everyday & when I get home in the country I hide from civilization in my small shop where I load my ammo & build my flintlock rifles. Building flintlock rifles has turned out to be an addiction for me . . . a good one at that. You should try it . . . and not with those cheap kits either.
    No, I don't know you and shouldn't have been hard on you. Again I apologize. I really never meant to detract from your very professional approach with my first post. I just meant to let the "rookies" understand that they need to approach your level of expertise slowly. No worries . . . all is good. Happy shooting.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Issac Haimes 004 (Small).JPG  
    Last edited by Pigslayer; 01-21-2012 at 12:21 PM.

  13. #173
    Boolit Master
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    Those are some BEAUTIFUL smoke poles!

    Nice work!
    Roy B
    Massachusetts

    www.rvbprecision.com

  14. #174
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    Quote Originally Posted by rbertalotto View Post
    Those are some BEAUTIFUL smoke poles!

    Nice work!
    Yes, I guess "smoke poles" is an appropriate description. Heh-heh. They are fine weapons as are yours. I imagine that you have a bundle tied up in the rifles shown in your post. But, this "addiction" can put a dent in one's finances . . . in a good way. I was checking out your site & pics of your shop. You have a nice setup. My Dad was a machinist for Hardinge Brothers Lathe Co. in Elmira, NY for 32 years. If you want a top of the line Tool & Die makers lathe, try to find one . . . used. They are expensive. You'll be pleased.
    It seems that you are one of ecclectic nature as am I. I don't know whether that is good or bad but I know there's always something untried that I am looking for. I'm always building something and usually have about three or four projects on the back burner. Here is a pic of a recent build. Right now I'm also building a propane forge using a homemade double "Reil" burner. I love "fire" & "steel".
    Last edited by Pigslayer; 12-25-2011 at 09:03 AM.

  15. #175
    Boolit Master thehouseproduct's Avatar
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    Wow! Thread drift. So, I am ordering parts for the lead pot PID and it all makes sense. If I wanted to use the PID to control an iron that is heating my lube sizer, which thermocouple mount would you guys recommend? None of the ones on Aubrins stand out as appropriate.

  16. #176
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehouseproduct View Post
    Wow! Thread drift. So, I am ordering parts for the lead pot PID and it all makes sense. If I wanted to use the PID to control an iron that is heating my lube sizer, which thermocouple mount would you guys recommend? None of the ones on Aubrins stand out as appropriate.
    If you are willing/able to drill and tap a small 1/4-20 tpi hole in your lube sizer, you could use their 1/2" probe.

  17. #177
    Boolit Master thehouseproduct's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranium View Post
    If you are willing/able to drill and tap a small 1/4-20 tpi hole in your lube sizer, you could use their 1/2" probe.
    I have a Lyman 45, a hole in the base should suffice, correct?

  18. #178
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thehouseproduct View Post
    I have a Lyman 45, a hole in the base should suffice, correct?
    Anywhere that it will not interfere with anything else around it and where you want the temperature to be monitored.

    From looking at pictures, it looks like the base is of adequate thickness. Closer to the lube tube is better since you will have your most accurate readings there. Placing it at the back edge would not account for the cooling as it makes its way to the tube.

    If you end up doing this, be sure to post some pics. I've been thinking about doing this for my Lyman 4500 with a home built PID controller but haven't gotten around to it yet. Your project would help motivate me.

  19. #179
    Boolit Man
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    Ok, I know I should probablly read the entire 9 pages of posts on this project, but I'm short on time and attention right now. I am NOT mechanically inclinded. I can do some stuff, but the thought of taking apart my Lee Pro 4 20 furnace scares me a little for fear that I won't be able to get it back together. I also worry about figuring out how to wire a PID controller into the system. So my question is this. Is there a pre-made PID controller that I can plug my Lee Pro furnace into that is already set up? I would like to be able to basically "plug and play" with it. Is this possible? Thank you. (hmmm....maybe I could pay someone on CB to build one for me....hmmm)
    Respectfully,

    Powell

  20. #180
    Boolit Master thehouseproduct's Avatar
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    Ok, bought my parts, now I have a couple of really dumb questions.
    1) How do you mount the PID vertical instead of horizontal? There isn't room for the clips in that direction.
    2) How do you strip the wires on the thermocouple? The cloth or braided stainless don't respond to wire strippers.
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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check