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Thread: Project - PID on Lee Pro 4 20 furnace

  1. #141
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    This is my understanding of these:

    SSR's or Solid State Relays have the advantage over mechanical relays when there is a lot of switching as in a PID setup. SSR's have no moving parts. A mechanical relay switching quite a bit will likely start to have pitting in the contacts from arcing and heat associated from that up to the point of it burning out, or starting to hum.

    A mechanical relay would have the advantage in a circuit that does not cycle very much because it produces very little heat when closed or open whereas a SSR will produce heat due to internal resistance when closed.

  2. #142
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    Question to you smart guys and/or gals: Is it true that the PID should NOT be used during the initial ramp up to 650 or so degrees F? Should the pot be plugged into a regular outlet during temperature ramp up?

    Well if his is cycling while it's heating up, there's something wrong with it.

    Mine cycles a couple times right after I turn it on, then stays on until it's about 40 degrees under the set temp. My SSR never even gets warm. Could be because it's a 40 amp, and I'm only drawing 7 amps through it? I also have a huge heat sync on it, which also never feels warm.
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  3. #143
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    It sounds like the guy that had the relay 'burn out' used an Auber syl 2342 or the equivalent. That model has an internal relay.

    Auber 'Claims' 10A @ 110V; but if you look at the specs for the syl 2342 P, the ramp/soak version, it's relay is only rated for 3A @ 110V.
    I find it unlikely that the same model (with different programming only) has different parts inside.
    Given the small size of the PC mounted relays in that model, even 3A makes me nervous. I'd hold it down to around 1A max. less if switching an inductive load.

    Relays being mechanical will wear out over time. They all have a limited number of cycles called the MTBF or 'Mean Time Before Failure'. Relays are also rather high current draw devices often requiring a fair current to pull in, this is a heat source.

    There are a number of reasons why SSRs will fail, but number of cycles is not one of them. All electronic devises are susceptible to these causes to varying degrees.

    They are:

    Number One is Heat! This is a controllable problem for the most part.

    Number Two is Over Current. This causes Problem Number One. Excessive current in the junction causes a build up of heat at a rate that the chip can't get rid of fast enough. The result is the destruction of the junction, often explosively.

    Other less common reasons are:

    Impurities/Inconsistency in the junction. This is usually caught in the QC process; But it is possible for a junction to operate normally for a short time than fail. The chances of this are small. The best way to weed these out is a 'burn in' process, but will raise costs. If it happens, it's basically - you got a lemon.

    Radiation. Simple exposure to the normal background radiation slowly changes the composition of the junction materials, and the hotter the junction, the faster this has an effect. After enough exposure they will fail. In modern devices, in normal use, this life expectancy is measured in decades.

    With the exception of Radiation and Impurities, chips do not "Wear Out". They operate normally until an above condition has an effect.

    For an SSR to fail in a short time, one would expect either a heat problem or an excessive current.

    Remedies:
    Choose a SSR that has a little 'room' - for a 15 amp circuit use a 25 amp SSR and make sure it is properly protected from both internal and external heat. Internal, use a proper heat sink. External, don't mount the heat sink on the hot part of the Pot! and make sure it has good air flow.

    Fuse the SSR power circuit. In a 15 amp application use a 15 amp Fast blow fuse.
    The faster the fuse the better it'll protect the SSR from a short. It just doesn't take much time for an overcurrent to blow these up.

  4. #144
    Boolit Man
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    Cranium, Snuffy, rbertalotto and Frozone,

    Thanks to you for the reassurance. I am going to use my PID as I have been - which includes the ramp up to temperature. I used the 25 A SSR and, as previously stated, I see mine switch much more as it "holds" the SV temperature than during ramp up during which time it is usually on "out."

    Constructing and using the PID has been one of the biggest single improvements that I have made in both my casting knowledge and experience and it is mostly thanks to you guys. Your patience and knowledge have been responsible for a lot more PID's being successfully constructed than it might seem by counting the "vocal" ones like me who tend not to be....er......shy? about posting all over the place. If you add in the number of folks who have benefited from this but have not posted, you have made a significant contribution to the forum.

    Thanks again from me and maybe from the shadows as well?
    Have a good day,

    Kevin



  5. #145
    Boolit Mold
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    Thanks all for the great thread and how to..

    Here is my build finished tonight. Brass plates are to cover too big of holes I punched in to the case.


    And the back..



    Back connectors are Neutrik PowerCon.

    I cannot wait to try it out this weekend.

  6. #146
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    In THIS Post I offered a schematic to add LED warning lights to your PID set up.

    Well, I now have PC boards to simplify the wiring. The boards are 2.1" long and .8" wide with 2 mounting holes. You simply add the components and solder them in.
    Complete with instructions for correct set up.

    I need $10 plus shipping for these.
    I know, they're a little bit expensive, but that is the problem with a small run.
    These are offered at my cost.
    I only have 10 of them, I kept 2 for myself. 12 was the minimum order.
    For a little extra, I'll even add the components, all you do is solder in 4 wires and mount it in your project.

    I also have all components needed for this project if you need them.
    Red, Green, and Blue LEDs as well as the diodes and resister.

    Complete Boards, with LEDs (Specify either Red,Green,Red or Red,Green,Blue LEDs) ready to go will be $16 plus shipping.

    PM for purchase.
    Last edited by Frozone; 08-30-2011 at 08:50 PM.

  7. #147
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by FatMcNasty View Post
    Thanks all for the great thread and how to..

    Here is my build finished tonight. Brass plates are to cover too big of holes I punched in to the case.


    And the back..



    Back connectors are Neutrik PowerCon.

    I cannot wait to try it out this weekend.
    You'll love it! Say, where did you get that enclosure? I've been wanting to get a bigger one so I can install a cooling fan in mine

  8. #148
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozone View Post
    In THIS Post I offered a schematic to add LED warning lights to you PID set up.

    Well, I now have PC boards to simplify the wiring. The boards are 2.1" long and .8" wide with 2 mounting holes. You simply add the components and solder them in.
    Complete with instructions for correct set up.

    I need $10 plus shipping for these.
    I know, they're a little bit expensive, but that is the problem with a small run.
    These are offered at my cost.
    I only have 10 of them, I kept 2 for myself. 12 was the minimum order.
    For a little extra, I'll even add the components, all you do is solder in 4 wires and mount it in your project.

    I also have all components needed for this project if you need them.
    Red, Green, and Blue LEDs as well as the diodes and resister.

    PM for purchase.
    Nice! I'm sure you'll get some interest in this. If I didn't recently start etching my own boards again, I'd take you up on it.

  9. #149
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranium View Post
    Nice! I'm sure you'll get some interest in this. If I didn't recently start etching my own boards again, I'd take you up on it.
    Thanks.
    These are Professional 2 layer boards.
    They are coated in the green solder mask and silk screened with component orientations and part number references.
    They also have plated through holes for good secure solder connections.

  10. #150
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Yeah, I figured as much since you had minimums to order.

    I can only do 2 layer boards....no solder mask...no silk screening...no plated through holes. Makes it harder to do layouts and solder than what you have in your hands. Those are top notch.

  11. #151
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by bigjason6 View Post
    You'll love it! Say, where did you get that enclosure? I've been wanting to get a bigger one so I can install a cooling fan in mine
    Its the from Auber's site. And it has plenty of room in it..

  12. #152
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    Well I finally finished the Dual system I was working on.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...1&postcount=22

  13. #153
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozone View Post
    Well I finally finished the Dual system I was working on.
    http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...1&postcount=22
    Holy ****! That is one beefy unit! I'd have to do an electrical upgrade at my house o run that thing at capacity! LOL

    Great job. Very professional looking. I'd like to see photos of it hooked up to your pot, oven and heater when you get a chance.

  14. #154
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranium View Post
    I'd have to do an electrical upgrade at my house to run that thing at capacity! LOL
    It'll run just as fine on 220V as 110V. Just change the plug on the power cord.
    That was the reason for the 12VDC contactor instead of an AC coil type. The 12V switching supply will take 85V - 280V AC as input.
    Of course you'd have to change the heaters in your melter too. I just might do that on my LEE 20s. The 220V coils are rather cheap.

    I designed it this way because it's Much easier to get cheap 220V 'band' heaters and I've had an itch to build a custom 40 - 50 lb melter (or 2).
    I didn't want to have to 'Upgrade' this thing to run a high power melter.

  15. #155
    Boolit Buddy lts70's Avatar
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    That is sweet frozone. Could you also use the same unit to run a lube heater at a maintained 100 degrees?

  16. #156
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    Quote Originally Posted by lts70 View Post
    That is sweet frozone. Could you also use the same unit to run a lube heater at a maintained 100 degrees?
    Yes, it will do it; But it would be a SLIGHT bit of overkill to run a < 60Watt heater from a 4 Kilowatt capable unit

    Here is the one I built for a lube heater. I used this SSR . It only handles 2 A but that is More than enough to run a lube heater of 100W without a heatsink.
    You could get by very easily with a relay output version of the PID and skip the SSR completely, too.
    Just set it so it has a 2 degree window and it won't cycle as much.

  17. #157
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozone View Post
    Yes, it will do it; But it would be a SLIGHT bit of overkill to run a < 60Watt heater from a 4 Kilowatt capable unit

    Here is the one I built for a lube heater. I used this SSR . It only handles 2 A but that is More than enough to run a lube heater of 100W without a heatsink.
    You could get by very easily with a relay output version of the PID and skip the SSR completely, too.
    Just set it so it has a 2 degree window and it won't cycle as much.
    That would be a good project for me in the future....but I think I'll try building my own PID controller next time. After all, the controllers we use typically only need to adjust temperature once they are set up. I could build a little PID controller using a ATmega328 microcontroller (Arduino) based system for about $25 with the SSR and have a basic display for just showing set temp and setting.

  18. #158
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranium View Post
    That would be a good project for me in the future....but I think I'll try building my own PID controller next time. After all, the controllers we use typically only need to adjust temperature once they are set up. I could build a little PID controller using a ATmega328 microcontroller (Arduino) based system for about $25 with the SSR and have a basic display for just showing set temp and setting.
    Yes, reinventing the wheel is always fun. I agree - in most of these cases a true PID is a little bit over kill.
    A simple Sample and Adjust circuit would work fine.
    People are using light bulbs to heat lube and it works fine. A very simple thermostat is all that is required.

  19. #159
    Boolit Master
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    Impressive work. Thanks a lot for this guide. I'll definitely do this sometime as well and the equipment cost wasn't too bad, they even ship internationally, cheaply too.

  20. #160
    Boolit Master thehouseproduct's Avatar
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    So, would this work for lots cheaper than what people have listed?
    http://www.ebay.com/itm/Digital-PID-...item4aaf277ec8

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