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Thread: Project - PID on Lee Pro 4 20 furnace

  1. #41
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snuffy View Post
    Cranium, thanks for the kudos, but I should not have posted that pic of the TC installation, that failed because the TC is not sealed/leakproof. After a couple of hours it looked like a frozen waterfall. Talk about drip art!

    Here's a pic of what I ended up with.

    I was actually under the impression that your TC didn't penetrate the pot. That's too bad though. But it's good you let us all know so we will hopefully not make the same mistake.

    If/when I decide to upgrade, I'm either going to go with a Master Caster or build a furnace myself from the ground up. I just have to figure out a good design for the bottom pour. Already have everything else sourced and planned in my head. Going to be 40 lb like yours.

  2. #42
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    Snuffy,

    If you are using the Arbur Instrument TC, then the fix is to carefully cut the nut off the TC. Get a piece 1/8" od aluminum tubing from a hobby store (they come in 1' lengths for ~$1) slide a 3/8" piece of this onto the TC then use a double ended brass tubing 1/8" "compression" fitting. That will seal the TC and the threads on the fitting screw onto a 3/8 nut.

  3. #43
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Doby45 View Post
    Would the wiring be the same on the 1/32 as it is on the 1/16?
    Yes it would. The terminal numbers on the PID would be different but the wiring of it would be the same. The instructions that come with the PIDs will tell you what goes where and show some wiring diagrams so it makes it pretty easy to do.

  4. #44
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozone View Post
    Snuffy,

    If you are using the Arbur Instrument TC, then the fix is to carefully cut the nut off the TC. Get a piece 1/8" od aluminum tubing from a hobby store (they come in 1' lengths for ~$1) slide a 3/8" piece of this onto the TC then use a double ended brass tubing 1/8" "compression" fitting. That will seal the TC and the threads on the fitting screw onto a 3/8 nut.
    Sounds simple except for the cutting of the nut. I'd hate to damage the TC.

  5. #45
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    I am the one that researched the relay and passed the info to Lee.

    The RIB relay has a 10 MILLION cycle mechanical expected life.

    http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf...RIBME2401B.pdf

    At work we have used them for years and never had one fail.
    On my PID I used a standard T92 relay. It has a 100K cycle life.
    I don't worry about it because I can replace it for free and have 100's of them.


    There isn't a life cycle rating on a SSR. Basically its suppose to last forever.

  6. #46
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by HATCH View Post
    I am the one that researched the relay and passed the info to Lee.

    The RIB relay has a 10 MILLION cycle mechanical expected life.

    http://www.functionaldevices.com/pdf...RIBME2401B.pdf

    At work we have used them for years and never had one fail.
    On my PID I used a standard T92 relay. It has a 100K cycle life.
    I don't worry about it because I can replace it for free and have 100's of them.


    There isn't a life cycle rating on a SSR. Basically its suppose to last forever.
    The biggest concern I would have using a mechanical relay is that they don't usually have an operating temperature range as high as a typical SSR. There isn't too much difference in this particular case with the relay being rated up to 140°F and the SSR at 158°F. But typically, SSRs will be rated higher at around 300°F (150°C)

    But free is certainly a good reason to use that relay even if they didn't last as long as an SSR.

  7. #47
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    I moved the SSR outside the enclosure and installed the heatsink to ensure there are no issues with heat. I actually completed this a week ago but am just now getting around to posting the pic for it.

    Last weekend, I cast around 600 boolits and it worked wonderfully! I had two 6-cavity molds going at once and the sprue was dumped back in the pot each time as well. Temperature was extremely stable and it made the whole process so much easier with not having to take the temp and tweaking the rheostat constantly.

    Project complete!



    Now the next project on my list will be to build a workbench using extruded aluminum with a 1 3/4" maple top. I've already got a good design done using Google's CAD program, SketchUp. I just need to find a cheaper extruded aluminum source because 8020.net has me at $1500 in just the aluminum parts.


  8. #48
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    Good how to thread, never knew I needed a PID 'till I read this.

    Stickied!


    For fine firearms and shooting requisites visit my Web Site by clicking the link below:

    Pukka Bundhooks

  9. #49
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranium View Post
    Sounds simple except for the cutting of the nut. I'd hate to damage the TC.
    It's not hard with a Dremel tool using it's cut off wheel.
    but if that's too hard, there are liquid tight ~800C units available, just not from Arbur.
    This link won't last, but the seller has these all the time.

  10. #50
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    So what does it cost to build one of these things?

  11. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by Colorado4wheel View Post
    So what does it cost to build one of these things?
    It depends on what you have lying around and how good a shopper you are.

    PID ~ $40. (30 - 45)
    TC ~ $10. (5 - 15)
    SSR ~ $15 (7 - 25)

    After that it's just what you do with it.

    In all likelihood it'll be $80 - $100.

  12. #52
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Here are the order details for my order:

    1 x Compact Box for 1/16 DIN Controller and Timer (CPTbox16) = $22.32
    1 x K type high temperature thermocouple for heat treatment (WRNK-191) = $18.62
    Probe Length Option 6" (150 mm)
    1 x 25A SSR (RS1A40D25) = $15.00
    1 x Heat Sink for Solid State Relay, 25A (HS25) = $9.65
    1 x 1/16 DIN PID Temperature Controller (SSR control output) (SYL-2352) = $44.50
    1 x Flashing Buzzer, 110 or 240V AC. 22 mm (FLBuz) = $7.86
    Power Voltage Option 120V AC/DC
    1 x Panel mount connector for K thermocouple (TCCON) = $5.26
    ------------------------------------------------------
    Sub-Total: $123.21
    Zone Rates (Shipping to US): $17.50
    Total: $140.71

    Recommendations for a budget build ($75 shipped):
    • Universal 1/32 DIN PID Temperature Controller - $35.95
    • K Type Thermocouple w/ 6" (150 mm) Probe - $13.50
    • 25A SSR - $15
    • Mount in a seperate, external enclosure. This could be a plastic box, metal box, lunch box or whatever you have laying around.

    Since casting is typically done at temperatures <750°F, the cheaper thermocouple can be used. The smaller, single line display, PID will also save a few dollars and be just as effective.

    You can also eliminate the need for an SSR altogether by going with:
    • 1/4 DIN PID Temperature Controller $59.50

    Add to this either of the two thermocouples mentioned. No need for a SSR, wire the heater directly to the outputs of this PID. This PID will handle up to 1200 watts which is more than enough for the Lee furnace.

  13. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranium View Post
    Since casting is typically done at temperatures <750F, the cheaper thermocouple can be used. The smaller, single line display, PID will also save a few dollars and be just as effective.
    But you need to plan on temps up to ~ 850F ( ~450C); it's Never a good idea to play with the upper limits of a part, just to save a buck. Your car engine has a red line of say 6000RPM how often would you keep it at >5500 continuously?

    I'd go with the single line units to save space or if you don't need any 'alarms'. They have limited functions that way. They are the way to go if the above criteria are met and you don't change temps often.

    And saving money is fine what if you get a power surge or short that burns out the SSR?
    I'd rather replace a $15 SSR than a $60 PID. EH?

  14. #54
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    Perfect. Thanks. If I make one of these I could also use it to control the temp on my Star. I don't know what that probe would look like at all.

  15. #55
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    I bought my probe from this guy -> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120724400710
    Its $13 shipped
    Its rated up to 1292 deg F. That is PLENTY hot.
    I have had mine up to 780 degrees before and it works fine.

    a TRUE budget build (SHIPPED PRICES LISTED)

    1/32 PID $42
    Probe $13
    SSR - $3 (from me its a 10 amp unit and you only draw 5.8 so just 60% of rate)

    You need to buy a 10 foot power extension cable.
    You will cut it and use both ends.

    I will do this for the next 2 people that post on this thread and say that want the deal.

    You purchase the Probe and the PID.
    For $25 I will build your PID and provide the missing peices

    Your $25 pays for
    Shipping to you
    SSR (10 amp unit)
    Alum enclosure
    Toggle switch (to turn of power to PID)
    Extension power cable.

    I will even provide a spare SSR just in case of failure.

    So if you do the deal basically you are looking at spending under $80 for a working unit.

    You can wait next week and get a review from Ken because I am building him one now (a gift)

  16. #56
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by HATCH View Post
    I bought my probe from this guy -> http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=120724400710
    Its $13 shipped
    Its rated up to 1292 deg F. That is PLENTY hot.
    I have had mine up to 780 degrees before and it works fine.

    a TRUE budget build (SHIPPED PRICES LISTED)

    1/32 PID $42
    Probe $13
    SSR - $3 (from me its a 10 amp unit and you only draw 5.8 so just 60% of rate)

    You need to buy a 10 foot power extension cable.
    You will cut it and use both ends.

    I will do this for the next 2 people that post on this thread and say that want the deal.

    You purchase the Probe and the PID.
    For $25 I will build your PID and provide the missing peices

    Your $25 pays for
    Shipping to you
    SSR (10 amp unit)
    Alum enclosure
    Toggle switch (to turn of power to PID)
    Extension power cable.

    I will even provide a spare SSR just in case of failure.

    So if you do the deal basically you are looking at spending under $80 for a working unit.

    You can wait next week and get a review from Ken because I am building him one now (a gift)
    I will do that. Is a 220 version a problem? I use two pots and one is 110v the other is 220 and I would like to switch between the two. But if thats a issue I will just use one pot. I would prefer to use my 220 pot.

  17. #57
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozone View Post
    But you need to plan on temps up to ~ 850F ( ~450C); it's Never a good idea to play with the upper limits of a part, just to save a buck. Your car engine has a red line of say 6000RPM how often would you keep it at >5500 continuously?

    I'd go with the single line units to save space or if you don't need any 'alarms'. They have limited functions that way. They are the way to go if the above criteria are met and you don't change temps often.

    And saving money is fine what if you get a power surge or short that burns out the SSR?
    I'd rather replace a $15 SSR than a $60 PID. EH?
    I'm not sure what you are basing your 850°F criteria on but you should certainly plan on buying the thermocouple rated within the temperature range you think you will need. But if you won't go above 750°, the cheaper thermocouple will be very effective. You won't overload it by operating within designed parameters. It is not machinery and has no moving parts so in effect, you are just getting more efficiency out of it.

    As far as the power surge and short criteria go, I'm not concerned about power surges. We all have many devices plugged in our walls at home that do not have surge protection on them and this device is plugged in very little. But a short is another story...This could be caused by a number of factors including human error. Adding a 10 amp in-line fuse would add an additional level of safety to this project and can be picked up at Radio Shack for $5 for both the fuse holder and a 4 pack of fuses.

    And now that you mentioned it and I think about it, this would be a good add-on for this project. More tinkering is always fun!

  18. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by Cranium View Post
    I'm not sure what you are basing your 850°F criteria on but you should certainly plan on buying the thermocouple rated within the temperature range you think you will need.

    Many is the person that has run the pot at 825 or more for certain molds.

    A 'K' type TC is the same wire - even if it's rated @ 120F or 2100F.

    What is different is the insulation used.
    Moving parts are irrelevant, Marginal design is a failure point.

    Most of your design is JUST THAT, a failure point.


    Putting a fuse in the system is well known, you would have known that with the search function. Your idea has been done before and written up here, FAR better than the one you built.

    Here is a proper design, no exposed parts and flexible, it will run more than 1 pot.


    Oh and that radio shack fuse - it won't save your SSR. It's not fast enough unless it's just above the I requirements and then it won't handle spikes.
    The correct way is 2 fuses. one on the PID (a 'slowblo') and a second (I2) on the SSR.
    Last edited by Frozone; 05-18-2011 at 06:44 PM.

  19. #59
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    PM sent to Hatch on pid controler.

  20. #60
    Boolit Buddy Cranium's Avatar
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    Frozone,

    During the process of this build, I have welcomed other's input and made some adjustments based on it. Other's have shared their designs as well to offer alternatives. If you would like to offer an alternative, feel free. I enjoy doing mods and learning from others.

    btw...I do like your design. I can tell you put a lot of effort into it. I think you should share your experience and journey in a way that others can learn from it.
    Last edited by Cranium; 05-31-2011 at 10:47 PM.

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