LeveRevoltuion Powder

[wiljen]

Knowing that they have the technology to create a powder with a longer duration at peak pressure, I wonder how long it will be until all the other hodgdon powders get the same treatment.

[NHlever]

Larry, thanks for the great information on the new powder. My dealer has it in stock, but I haven't tried any yet. I have too much ammo loaded up with various test loads using standard powders that I have to test first. To the poster that has medical issues holding him back, I'm there too, but have managed to get out to shoot some. The bugs are dying down a bit here now in the day time so it's time to hit the range with a bag full of guns, and ammo again.

[G. Blessing]

fantastic read, great info!

I was recently buying some of the fancy leverlution bullets to try loading, and saw the powder. I considered it, but figured If I don't like the bullets, then I'm stuck with a powder that probably doesn't have data available for cast. So I skipped getting any. I'll have to get some now!

I am really looking forward to seeing how this new powder performs with the 200grn cast. That's what I'm loading for a heavy moose hunting load, 200grn (Lee RN) @ 2000fps(30grns of 4320 gets about 2050fps), but I'm only "pretty sure" that my load is pressure safe. Looks like this new powder could do it, and having a pressure test on it, to be 100% sure would be fabulous!

G.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm back from EOT World Championship so will get to the confirmation testing, maybe tomorrow.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Got a chance to test the confirmation 10 shot strings today out of the M94 AE with 24" barrel.

Results are;

GabbyM's RCBS 30-180-FNs/197.5 gr/BHN 17.5
36 gr Win 760
R-P case
Rem 9 1/2 primer
2.522 OAL
2066 fps (corrected to muzzle)
1870 ft/lbs of energy
200 yard velocity; 1438 fps
906 ft/lbs of energy
SD 17 fps
ES 56 fps
MAP; 36,200 psi(M43)

Lyman 311041 HP/50/50 WW/pb + 2% tin/177 gr
34.5 gr Hodgdon LeveRevolution
FC cases
Rem 9 1/2 primer
OAL; 2.55
2218 fps (corrected to Muzzle)
1935 ft/lbs of energy
200 yard velocity; 1554 fps
950 ft/lbs of energy
SD; 19 fps
ES; 37 fps
MAP; 35,800 psi(M43)

A 5 shot string of LeveRevolution with the 30-180-FN bullet looked very promising at 2247 fps with 38,700 psi(M43). That's about a 190 fps gain over the Win 760 load. Remaining velocity at 200 yards is around 1600 fps with 1000+ ft/lbs of energy.

GabbyM; hard copy of Win 760 load data will be in the mail tomorrow.

Larry Gibson

[GabbyM]

Thanks Larry
Those are some nice numbers. Very much appreciate your work on this project.

[felix]

Hopefully, Larry, they found a way for a new and improved method for blending two powders, making a an alloy in effect. If they do it in the liquid stage, that would be ideal. The demise of the WW630 was because the blending was after the fact using obviously two different lots, one pure ball, and another severely flattened ball. Transportation difficulties galore. That 630 speed, exactly between BlueDot and 2400, has never been duplicated, and is one of my favorites. I still have about 4 pounds left. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

GabbyM

You're welcome. My 30-30 hunting load for that rifle is now the 311041 HP load. Zeroed at 150 yards it is 1.23 high at 50, 1.9 high at 100 and only 4.9 low at 200 yards, plenty flat enough for deer hunting. With 1550 fps remaining at 200 yards expansion should be very good with that alloyed HP bullet. Will have to test this load in my M94 Carbine (pre 64) since the psi is entirely safe and under many if not most factory 30-30 loads.

Have to admit that RCBS bullet looks aweful good too!

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Thank you very much for your efforts and data in this arena.

PLease let us know what the powder charge of Leverevolution was that you used with the RCBS bullet.

Thank you,
w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
Thank you very much for your efforts and data in this arena.

PLease let us know what the powder charge of Leverevolution was that you used with the RCBS bullet.

Thank you,
w30wcf

36 gr of LeveRevolution with the 30-180-FN. Sorry, meant to put that in the post. The psi, while not at the 42,000 MAP for the 30-30 is still getting up there so start lower (suggest 34 gr) and work up. I know you will but just want to add that caution for others.

Larry Gibson

[MakeMineA10mm]

Hopefully, Larry, they found a way for a new and improved method for blending two powders, making a an alloy in effect. If they do it in the liquid stage, that would be ideal. The demise of the WW630 was because the blending was after the fact using obviously two different lots, one pure ball, and another severely flattened ball. Transportation difficulties galore. That 630 speed, exactly between BlueDot and 2400, has never been duplicated, and is one of my favorites. I still have about 4 pounds left. ... felix

Sorry for the off topic jaunt, but I'll make it brief. AL-8 was in that same burning speed zone, and it's gone now too.

These two powders (W630 and AL-8) are very tantilizing for us 10mm afficionados... And, you're right, nothing has come out that quite duplicates this.

[w30wcf]

36 gr of LeveRevolution with the 30-180-FN. Sorry, meant to put that in the post. The psi, while not at the 42,000 MAP for the 30-30 is still getting up there so start lower (suggest 34 gr) and work up. I know you will but just want to add that caution for others.
Larry Gibson

Larry,
THank you for that info. Advice heeded.
197.5 / 36.0 / LR / 9 1/2 / 2,247 fps / 38,700 psi(M43) / 24" bbl
That is impressive!.....A bit more than factory velocity with a cast bullet almost 30 grs. heavier and well within SAMMI specs!

Interestingly, 30-30 LeveRevolution cartridges I have dissected contained 35.5-36.0 grs of powder. Would it be possible that similar pressures are developed with the same amount of powder behind a 160 jacketed bullet vs a 197.5 gr cast?

Understandably, a different lot of powder could = a sligtly different result but it is an interesting comparison.

w30wcf


.

[Larry Gibson]

w30wcf

Interestingly, 30-30 LeveRevolution cartridges I have dissected contained 35.5-36.0 grs of powder. Would it be possible that similar pressures are developed with the same amount of powder behind a 160 jacketed bullet vs a 197.5 gr cast?

While I've tested LeveRevolution quite a bit with 150 gr jacketed, the 160 gr FTX, 311041s and the 30-180-FNs it appears, regardles of the bullet weight and type, the powder doesn't start burning efficiently until the load gets to 100% loading density. That is 34.5 - 40 gr depending on type and weight of bullet.

I loaded up through 36 gr with the 311041 but only gained 67 fps. The time/pressure curves were flattening out at the top end and not as consistant as the 34.5 gr load. Besides the 10 shot group with that alloyed (WW/pb at 50/50 2% tin) whas the best I have shot with that rifle so far

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Thank you for the update. Sounds like you are getting great results!
I guess I'll have to breakdown and by a lb. to try.......

w30wcf

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for your work Larry. Impressive results with the heavy cast bullets! Thanks for posting the image of the pressure curves too. Interesting the way the top of the curve flattens. It looks like this stuff is for real.

I tried the LVR powder with 130 Barnes TSX's in a Model 64 Winchester. I know, not a traditional lever action bullet, but I have to hunt with copper slugs here and the 150 TSX has a BC somewhat south of a brick. I have a scout scope on the Model 64 and point blank range with the 130 TSX is 250 yards, which is nice in the country I hunt.

Anyway my top velocities with conventional powders and the 130TSX are about 2500 FPS before the action gets a little sticky to open. Three rounds with 38.5 grains of LVR(Hodgdons top load with 150's) and the 130 TSX chronoed at 2644, 2649 and 2654 FPS with normal extraction and pushed out primers. So a 150 FPS improvement over conventional powders and very consistent velocities.

Since the primers were pushed out and the load wasn't stretching the brass I tried 39.5 grains and things got out of hand. Three rounds chronoed at 2748, 2811 and 2774 FPS. The round clocked at 2811 gave a little stick to opening the action and the primer was flush with the case head so a little to hot! The thing is velocities increased over 100 FPS and velocities got erratic with just one more grain of the LVR powder. It looks like it got out of its comfort zone very quickly! Might be better to approach the top end in half grain increments with LVR.

The Model 64 has a tight bore so I tried the 38.5/130 TSX load in a Marlin 336A with the same length 24" barrel. Three rounds went 2519, 2527 and 2539 FPS. Over 100 FPS slower than the Model 64 but still uniform velocities. The increasing velocities with each shot may suggest that the powder is temp sensitive also. Or it could be fouling building up in the barrel since I started with a clean barrel in both rifles. However Hodgdon does not list LVR with the Extreme powders so it is more temp sensitive than the Extreme's. Incidentally the grains are highly flattened spheres.

[felix]

Incidentally the grains are highly flattened spheres.

Yep, the powder is a slow powder by composition. Flattening increases ignition speed, and slows the burn speed. Nothing really new, but the concept on doing this to get the results as ADVERTISED is. I would like to see the composition of the balls compared to other others in the same advertised speed, like a 844-846. A difference would indicate something new was involved. It's sad the powder does not include an ambient temperature regulator. Well, maybe it does and we have not seen it in action for real. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Trailblazer

That 130 gr TSX appears to be giving higher psi and velocities as the 150 gr bullets. Probably because the harder TSX bullet offsets the lessor weight(?). My results also shown a fairly narrow "comfort zone" for LVR powder. Looks like the 38.5 gr load with that 130TSX is right where it wants to be. The 150 fps gain with obvious less psi of that load over conventional powders is where the "gain" comes in.

In my confirmation 10 shot string tests I start with a clean barrel and shoot 2 "foulers" before the record 10 shots. This as SAAMI recommends. In checking my results where I recorded the data from the 1st 2 shots it does appear the the loads shot "faster" with the fouled bore. In your case the TSX may be providing some fouling also(?). During the 10 shot test record strings the velocities fluctuated up and down within the ES with no "progessively" apparent increase as the barrel warmed.

If the accuracy is there that 130TSX load should be a dandy for deer hunting there in California. 2660+ actual muzzle velocity out of the M64 isn't too shabby

Larry Gibson

[Trailblazer]

Yes the 38.5 grain load looks like it is in a good place. The TSX does generate more pressure than conventional bullets. I had the 125 Ballistic Tip going 2740 FPS with the top load in Hodgdon's old #26 manual.

I need to do more testing with the LVR for sure. My first test was just to see velocities. Those copper bullets are expensive so I parcel them out grudgingly. The group was pretty big but that rifle really needs to be recrowned before I do anything else with it. My previous 130 TSX load shot into 2" at 100 yards. The rifle was very accurate with the Speer 130 FN and a moderate load of RL-7. As velocity and muzzle pressure increase the group size increases too.

The Barnes tech told me one of the limits on the 130 TSX is that it has to be going at least 2000 FPS for reliable expansion so a little more muzzle velocity is a good thing. He said the TTSX will expand down to about 1800 FPS. I have a box of those now so I will try those after I recrown the muzzle.

I carried the Model 64 last fall with the 130 TSX load. I had the opportunity to kill a barely legal little buck at 100 yards. He was chasing a doe around the canyon and ended up laying down right below me. I just couldn't bring myself to drop the hammer on the little fart. The thing is I could have killed him with any old 30-30 load.

[RPRNY]

Very late to the party here but, for posterity, I thought I would record my recent experiences with Leverevolution.

1968 Marlin 336 Texan 30-30

Load: 35.5 gr Leverevolution, 160 gr FTX, WLR primer, Win Brass


Good accuracy with Williams peep sight. Very stiff recoil, flattened and cratered primers. Too hot in my rifle. I will start next load at 34grs and see what we get.

[MGD]

When I tried leverevolution and the flex tip bullet in my 30-30 AI, all expectations were exceeded. I wont talk about the groups, don't want to here that the gun cant shoot that accurately, again. I have been using everything else up, and stopped using anything else for deer. It makes sense that i works so well when you consider that Hornady engineered the powder and bullet for one load for one type of gun.