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Thread: Win 94, how big can you go?

  1. #1
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    Win 94, how big can you go?

    Hi all. I picked up a neglected Win 94 30-30 in a pawn shop a little while back just because it was there and needed a new home. Maybe that's why we have 6 dogs? No I guess it's not the dogs, but more why I need a new much bigger safe
    Anyway, I browsed Numerich and they have some 356 and 375 barrels for cheap, so I ordered a couple and thought I'd put the 356 barrel on and just load to around 40k.
    So I have the rifle torn most of the way down and sitting on the shelf. I was reading in the Rifle mag about Turnbulls 50 cal leverguns, and I have a 50 cal blank sitting on the shelf. I cut a RUM case off at 2.1" and seated a bullet for my 500 S&W. The case just fits inside the action and fits in the mag tube. Case capacity is 93 gns H2O, about the same as the 50 Alaskan. I'm thinking that it should handle pressures around 37k easily.

    So, how big of a cartridge has anyone put into the Win 94 action? I know Winchester made the 94 in 444 and 450 Marlin.
    It would probably be just a big waste of time, but I still have to wonder.

  2. #2
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    Glenn I have no doubt you would want such a beast,but the 375's,444, and 450 Marlin 94's were all built on the Big Bore 94 actions.
    If the 50 cal is in your future I would think an 1886 or similar would be the Winchester to go for. But then,,I am the nut here with the 458 and 50 ak pistols.
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  3. #3
    Boolit Master omgb's Avatar
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    The .348 or 444 case is about as big as the 94 action will take. You will have to keep pressure down to around 30-35K. If you go above that with a standard action you risk running into trouble with increasing head space and attendant separations. Starmetal and I argued about this very issue, he taking a much more liberal approach. Too many have tried to hot rod the 94 action with uneven results.
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  4. #4
    Boolit Grand Master In Remembrance Four Fingers of Death's Avatar
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    Use the 375 Bbl and make it a 38/55, that would work wouldn't it and rechamber the 356 to a 35/30/30 AI or similar. 35Lever Power is nice, but a pita to make brass.
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  5. #5
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    I say try it! The 50 caliber would have a lot bigger casehead and a lot more bolt thrust so I doubt you would want to load it to 37,000. 30,000 PSI might be more realistic. The barrel shank is small and you wouldn't have much meat left around the chamber. Marlins have been barreled to 50 calibers and what little objective evidence I have seen indicates the 94 is just as strong as the Marlin. I probably wouldn't go there with a 94 that has the cast receiver.

    If you want to feed from the magazine the 94 needs a rimmed case to function as it is designed. With a rimless case you would have a two shot. One in the chamber and one in the magazine.

  6. #6
    Boolit Buddy LET-CA's Avatar
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    According to the article written by Paco on his Leverguns website, when Winchester made the 444 Marlin version of their 94, they spec'd the pressure out to 55,000. I have no personal knowledge, but I highly recommend reading his article on the Win 444.

  7. #7
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    As others have pointed out, the .375 and other high-pressure rounds were built on the BB frame which is beefed up considerable like in the rear area where the locking bolt engages in order to prevent bolt springing, brass stretching, case head seperation, loss of headspace, kabooms, etc etc etc......I rather like the idea of using the .375 barrel as a .38-55, which is what I use my .375 for....as for folks hotrodding the standard 94 action, I would weigh in with the observation that the folks at Winchester certainly didn't think it was up to it, which is the why of the beefed up BB frame and which couldn't have been a cheap research project nor production decision....
    Last edited by mtngunr; 01-05-2007 at 11:35 AM.

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    The 356 case is a rimmed 358 win, which is bigger than the 30-30 case. So no 35/30-30 AI. You would need to sleeve the chamber to make it smaller.
    I have a BB 375.
    I thought the 444 was on a standard action. I'll have to go check out the article.

  9. #9
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    The 444 was built on the Big Bore Action but I wouldn't read anything into that. It may have been done for production or marketing reasons. I have a 444 in the Black Shadow configuration that is the testbed for a couple wildcats I am playing with. SAAMI max for the 444 is 44,000 CUP. Paco's point was that the Big Bore is rated at 52,000 CUP so you can load it hotter in the Winchester than in the Marlin. Strengthwise the standard 94 and the Marlin 336 are two peas in a pod with the possible exception of the cast receiver 94's.

    Winchester put the 450 Marlin into what looks like a standard receiver. I doubt that it is the standard receiver though. The Big Bore was made from higher carbon steel than the standard and has bigger barrel threads. I would not be surprised if the 94's in 450 Marlin have the better steel and the larger threads even though they don't have the bulged sides of the Big Bore.

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    What 94 years were made with cast receivers?

  11. #11
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    All the standard caliber post 64 top eject rifles are cast steel. I think they were made with the MIM (metal injection mold) process. Winchester went back to forged receivers with the Angle Eject model that was introduced in 1983. The cast receivers may be fine too, but I read something about them that makes me a little suspicious of them. Can't remember what it was though. They are certainly adequate for the 30-30 class cartridges.

    From what I have found, all the Big Bore receivers are forged steel since their introduction in 1978.
    Last edited by Trailblazer; 01-08-2007 at 10:25 AM.

  12. #12
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    Thanks.

    Boy Winchester really screwed up after 64 didn't they?..

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    Trailblazer, have you pulled barrels on the regular and BB win 94's? I thought that I'd read somewhere that the shank threads were the same, but did some digging around and came up with the below. The 356 and 375 win barrels I have, have a .870" OD shank.

    Win 94 .809x20
    Win 94 BB .875x28?

    Marlin 336 .775x12 square .85”

    So to use a 375 barrel on the regular action with 38-55 loads, you would have to turn down and rethread the shank to get it into the regular action??

    I read an article on the Marlins
    http://www.levergun.com/Marlin/index.html
    and it looks like one of the biggest problems is the barrel shank size. So even the regular Win 94 has a larger OD.
    It looks like I'll have to do some more digging and reading before I start cutting.

  14. #14
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    Hey thanks for the lube samples by the way Glen..

  15. #15
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    LAR, yes, I have both standard and BB barrels loose here. The dimensions you have on the Winchesters are correct. Your Marlin dimensions sound correct but I don't have my notes handy. And yes even the standard Winchester has a stronger barrel thread than the Marlin. A friend of mine has rethreaded the BB barrels from Numrich to fit a standard 94 so it can definitely be done.

    I edited my above post because I forgot the Big Bores. From what I can tell all BB receivers have been forged steel.

  16. #16
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    I started compiling a list awhile back about different guns barrel threads to see what could be used where or be modified to fit.
    So here it is if anyone is interested. It still has some holes to fill in.
    The tabs and spaceing don't line up here.

    Rifle action dimensions

    Action threads length Reciver OD? other
    Mauser lrg. Ring 1.1x12 1.41”

    Mauser sm. Ring .98x12

    CZ 550 1.1x12.7

    BBK-02 1.1x12

    Rem 700 1 1/16”x16 .885
    1.0625x16
    Win 70 1x16

    Ruger 77 1x16 1.41”

    Sako

    Weatherby mk V 1.06x16 .7
    1 1/16x16
    Browning A-bolt

    Ruger no. 1 1x16”

    Rem Rolling block
    No. 1 smokeless 1.055x12 square 1.43”

    Win 1885 High wall

    Sharps 1874

    Savage 110 < 2001 1.05x20
    Short magnum>2001 1.125x20 G series, noticeable step after threads
    CRF 1 1/16x20
    1.0625x20
    Bolt Shotgun 1.1x20?

    MRC 1999 1x16 UNF 2B .75

    Enfield M-17 x10 square

    Enfield SMLE

    Mosin Nagant .97”x16 or 1x16”

    Steyr M-95

    Win 94 .809x20
    Win 94 BB .875x28?

    Rossi 92

    Marlin 336 .775x12 square .85”

    Marlin 1895 45-70 same as 336, 450 may have been changed to a v thread.





    Savage 99

  17. #17
    Boolit Buddy
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    Sorry for helping to continually try to hijack this thread, but just wanted to thank those responsible for furthering my education as to 94 receiver composition from post-64 until present....I would have guessed they went cast and stayed cast, but that apparently is not the case....there's not much out there that I can find on the subject, and when I went to google and typed in "winchester 94 receivers cast forged", the number one response in their listing was....tah dah.....this very thread........any further pointers to sources on this subject on the internet would be greatfully perused.....

  18. #18
    Boolit Buddy
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    mtngunr,

    There is a thread on leverguns.com that lists the different variations of the 94. I can't find it but I did find that the forged steel AE model was introduced in 1983. The search function is not to good there but you can google search the site. There is a "The One Sticky" thread at the top that tells how to google search the site. A lot of info there. A fellow posting as "OD" is one of the most knowledgeable members there on Winchesters.

  19. #19
    Boolit Master
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    Been There - Done That

    If you order the Big Bore Barrel you will need to turn down the shank to fit the smaller 94's action.

    I've been using my 30-30/375 conversion for 5 years without any problems but I consider the conversion to be a "cast bullet only" gun.

    It chambers 38-55 and 375 brass fine. I use 38-55 class loads in 375 Winchester brass but I wouldn't be afraid to load them a little more toward 375 Winchester power levels occasionally. I proof tested the gun with 375 Winchester factory ammo and headspace didn't change at all.

    Mine is a top eject, cast receiver of 1985 vintage.

    Definitely one of my favorite lever guns!

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  20. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trailblazer View Post
    mtngunr,

    There is a thread on leverguns.com that lists the different variations of the 94. I can't find it but I did find that the forged steel AE model was introduced in 1983. The search function is not to good there but you can google search the site. There is a "The One Sticky" thread at the top that tells how to google search the site. A lot of info there. A fellow posting as "OD" is one of the most knowledgeable members there on Winchesters.
    I appreciate the input of the google search of leverguns......I can never get their built-in search to function, period, so you can bet I'll be using the tip. Pretty funny is the fact that right after I read this thread and made the above query, I emailed OD to ask for his input.....he's a heck of a nice guy, and very sharp on quite a few things, including Winchesters and Colt 1911's and SAA's (among others), and we've been in touch for years....might even get him to admit I've helped him out a time or two (wink), but I'll definitely admit he's talked me into more expensive toys I was unfamiliar with that I've been able to con him into....oh, and his reply was, "Yes sir, Winchester started the cast receivers at or around 2,700,000 and return to forged in 1983 with the introduction a the AE receivers. I have never gotten a definitive answer as to whether or not any of the Big Bores were cast." (copyright OD Enterprises, LLC, all rights reserved, prosecutors will be violated)

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