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Thread: Japanese military 7.7 & 6.5 cartridges

  1. #1
    Boolit Master

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    Japanese military 7.7 & 6.5 cartridges

    I expect there's a fair number of Arisaka owners who've never seen original WW2 Japanese military cartridges in 7.7mm or 6.5mm. I have a handful of 7.7x58 cartridges but only one 6.5.

    The Japanese 7.7 cartridges are color coded around the case neck. The left one is purple and the right one is red. It would be nice if I could remember what the colors indicated!! One of them is incendiary (red?) and as I recall the incendiary are considered unstable and dangerous if DROPPED. I tend to handle them carefully as I have several of the incendiary. I think the purple may be armor piercing but correct me if I'm wrong.





    I also have an 8mm Nambu cartridge. None of the WW2 Japanese military cartridges have any headstamp information.

    Dutch

  2. #2
    Boolit Master
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    Dutch: Thanks for that. A few months back a fellow sent me the box of 8mm Nambu rounds shown in this photo along with that small "meatball" flag. His father took them off of a Japanese Naval officer (recently deceased) near the end of the battle for Iwo Jima.



    Thanks
    Mike Venturino

  3. #3
    Boolit Master

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    Mike,

    The pic didn't come through.

    Bill
    If it was easy, anybody could do it.

  4. #4
    Boolit Master


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    I have some original 6.5 and 7.7, still on the strippers. If I remember correctly the pink around the case mouth indicates "rifle" and no headstamps was standard practice.

    A cautionary note: The Japanese developed an explosive round (not the tracer or incendiary) with a PETN bullet core. The case color was purple and the rounds are very unstable, so dropping/jarring one could cause detonation. I've only seen photographs of them and frankly, that's as close as I need to be!

    Edit: I was wrong and it's very important that the RIGHT info is posted: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/j...ets/index.html

    So, evidently I have several clips loaded with incendiary ammo. Guess I'd better check my homeowner's policy......

    These rounds are potentially dangerous and should be handled carefully. Think I'll stick to lead!
    Last edited by 3006guns; 04-28-2011 at 08:52 AM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Master
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    mtgun44: The photo shows on my computer. Can someone else comment?

    MLV

  6. #6
    Boolit Master


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    Showed up for me Mike........and it's a nice one!

  7. #7
    Boolit Master TCFAN's Avatar
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    Yes Mike the photo shows up on my computer OK....Very nice picture.......Terry

  8. #8
    Boolit Master
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    Another Japanese cartridge

    Here's another obscure Japanese cartridge, not strictly military, but was used by them.

    7 MM Nambu, thats correct, 7 MM, not the 8 MM Nambu. This cartridge was for the Baby Nambu pistol. The cartridge on the left is 9 MM Luger for comparison.

    I acquired a supply of these years ago in anticipation of finding a Baby Nambu pistol and adding it to my small collection. So far it hasn't happened, but maybe someday.
    Last edited by elk hunter; 10-18-2011 at 11:21 PM.
    BIG OR SMALL I LIKE THEM ALL, 577 TO 22 HORNET.

  9. #9
    Boolit Master


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    elk hunter....if you ever do find a baby Nambu (good luck ) I have a good article in an old book on making the brass from .30 carbine.

    By the way, once you get tired of it you can sell it to me!

  10. #10
    Boolit Master

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    Quote Originally Posted by 3006guns View Post
    Edit: I was wrong and it's very important that the RIGHT info is posted: http://www.lonesentry.com/articles/j...ets/index.html

    Thank you! And you are absolutely correct about the right information being posted. I knew I had some of each of those but it's been a long time since I opened up my cartridge collection box. (Griffin shoe shine box).

    Dutch

  11. #11
    Boolit Man
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    On the three rifle cartridges, from left to right:
    AP, Ball, Ball

  12. #12
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    i have a strip of the Jap Machine gun ammo ill get a picture of this weekend,
    Link23

  13. #13
    Boolit Master gew98's Avatar
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    I had at one time a wad of type 99 & 38 rifles. They all seemed to shoot rather well. The 6,5 rifles seemingly preferred 160 gn pulled carcano bullets over the surplus chinese 139 gn ball bullets I salvaged from the corrosive chinese loaded brass.
    At one time 25 years ago Navy Arms was selling baggies of loose and charger loaded 6,5 jap ammo at their Northern NJ shop and I bought a bunch of it then for pennies. Found alot of WW1 Kynoch loaded ball in there and a couple russian loaded rounds too as well as early and late RN & spitzer jap ball.
    Only one...er two things I did that I would highly recommend nobody to ever do is shoot the semi rim 7,7 heavy ball hot loaded ammo found on hotchkiss clips. I had a buddy with several thousand rounds of the stuff whom was then selling it $5 for 30 rounds or $10 for 90. Needless to say I bought a bunch of it and took a ground mum mismatch 99 rifle and modified the bolt face to accept the semi rim cases. Boy was recoil substantial !!!. An approximate 205 grain flat based bullet with one whopper of a load behind it. Wrost part was the old low quality brass...it often split longitudally and caused some rather spectacular flames eminating form the action. I actually had the dust cover blow off...that's when I decided I was really pushing my luck..ah to be young and dumb then !.
    A few years before that I read "no surrender" and the jap soldiers telling of utilizing captured 303 ball in his 99 by filing the rims reallt got my attention. I proceded to modify a handfull of 303 cordite loaded ball and got a facfull of flame/smoke with eevry shot. Pretty obvious why and I filed that under - do not attempt again.

  14. #14
    Boolit Master georgewxxx's Avatar
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    I've pulled bullets from no head stamp Jap ammo like Dutchman picture and the powder was black square flakes similar to what WW2 French 8mm powder looks like only smaller.
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  15. #15
    Boolit Mold Shiori357's Avatar
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    Just let you guy's know about several difference of 7.7x58 Jap ammo.
    Either rimed one or non rimed 7.7x58 loaded for Type 92 heavy machine gun or Type 98 Light machine gun. (some of them for Type 97 air craft machine gun)

    It is not for type 99 rifle load, that was huge confusion occur in the front line back in the WWII days.

    Please remember, all original Japanese Imperial Army / Navy ammo had corrosive primer.
    Most of them would not fire up today and or corroded to your correctors Arisaka.

    Main reason why type 99 series had "Chrome Plated Bore" till early 1945.
    (Last ditch version 6 month of late 1945 would not have chrome plated bore, just run out all necessary material at time in Japan)

    I do shoot my both series 23 Kokura w/AAF sight & Series 22 Kokura, Toyo Kogyo w/AAF, original mono & sling Arisaka Type 99, but I do not shoot original imperial Japanese military ammo, even if I got 2000 round with my hand. (will never happen anyway)

    Because of we have much better propellant powder and primer for those rifles.
    I hate to say but this is true, WWII poor Japanese ammo will kill your historical Arisaka by one shot.

    We (as American) had top quality gun powder & primers for less than ten cents of cost per shot, we have no reason to use past poor load under huge risk by your own.

    It is interesting to get those original load for few rounds, but again those are very poor quality and not safe to handle it at all.

    I saw 6.5x50 original ammo at gun show, it is poor reload! (Japanese solider keep empty case and local armory reload those, however it is out of original military quality standard and should not use which I felt)

    It was my grandpa's generation issue, however I do not trust those even my grandpa hand to me for shoot those ammo's in today.

    Again, it is very hard to me to say true.


    georgewxxx have you chance to weight boolit ?
    Because, I could not find from your link regarding "pull off" original cartridge.

    Currently, I try to figure best cast boolit weight for Arisaka T99 barrel twist.
    Many test has been done with 200 gr, but not really well result I got so far.

    I would like to try 150 gr for next, however I would like to know original boolit weight, if you know.

    Shiori Okamoto
    Last edited by Shiori357; 05-18-2011 at 02:27 AM.

  16. #16
    Boolit Master
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    Shiori;
    I am not certain about this, but my general belief is that the Japanese designers who created the Type 99 rifle and cartridge system combined their excellent Mauser style (T38)action to a rimless cartridge base largely on the performance and characteristics of the .303 British service cartridge.

    As such, cast bullets of a nominal 175 gr would be closest to spec. Most reloading manuals that have measured Type 99 bores give readings for groove diameter and twist rate for the 7.7mm Japanese as being very close to the .303 British.

    Hope this helps.

  17. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Dutchman View Post
    ..... None of the WW2 Japanese military cartridges have any headstamp information. Dutch
    Not quite true: the Imperial Japanese Navy's small arms ammunition sported normal headstamps. It's IJ Army's small arms ammo that was completely unmarked.
    Last edited by Sanchez; 05-18-2011 at 04:08 PM.
    "I am not just any old latino strawberry picker: I am a proud latino strawberry picker with micrometers." - AlfonsoMurillo@Calstrawberrypickersunion.org

  18. #18
    Boolit Master georgewxxx's Avatar
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    "georgewxxx have you chance to weight boolit ?
    Because, I could not find from your link regarding "pull off" original cartridge."

    The two samples of WW2 Jap 6.5 bullets I have pulled weighed 137gr. They're 1.267 long and just a hair larger than .262 dia. The diameter is a .002 smaller than what most sources would have us believe they should be. It's extremely well made considering it being a military FMJ. The base has no flaws like any of our U.S. military small arms projectiles I've seen. ...Geo
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  19. #19
    Boolit Master gew98's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by georgewxxx View Post
    "georgewxxx have you chance to weight boolit ?
    Because, I could not find from your link regarding "pull off" original cartridge."

    The two samples of WW2 Jap 6.5 bullets I have pulled weighed 137gr. They're 1.267 long and just a hair larger than .262 dia. The diameter is a .002 smaller than what most sources would have us believe they should be. It's extremely well made considering it being a military FMJ. The base has no flaws like any of our U.S. military small arms projectiles I've seen. ...Geo
    The japanese manufatured the RN 160 gn bullet right up intil WW2 along wiht their spitzer round. Then theire was the hopper fed LMG that required lower powered ammunition to operate properly. I have always found original and especially chinese made 6,5 ball to be on the minimum dimensions on case specs. When I have shot original and chinese ammo in the past it swelled badly..NORMA rarely showed such in same rifles. Never had a japanese rifle with issue ammo shoot anything like as good as an M1 or M1 carbine with WW2 dated ammo.

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Abbreviations used in Reloading

BP Bronze Point IMR Improved Military Rifle PTD Pointed
BR Bench Rest M Magnum RN Round Nose
BT Boat Tail PL Power-Lokt SP Soft Point
C Compressed Charge PR Primer SPCL Soft Point "Core-Lokt"
HP Hollow Point PSPCL Pointed Soft Point "Core Lokt" C.O.L. Cartridge Overall Length
PSP Pointed Soft Point Spz Spitzer Point SBT Spitzer Boat Tail
LRN Lead Round Nose LWC Lead Wad Cutter LSWC Lead Semi Wad Cutter
GC Gas Check