Need some suggestions

[Buddy]

I picked up an old ML a few years ago and am now wanting to do something with it. It is a 50 cal. underhammer that uses the trigger guard for the hammer spring. This old relic has no markings on it except for a very small 509 stamped on top of the 26" octagonal barrel. It is in remarkably good condition except for the bore. I have tried eveything under the sun to get it shootable but it is corroded so bad I have given up. I want to shoot this gun so bad it's eating me up. Should I try to find a liner and reline it or see if I can get it rebored to a 54? It's a fine looking old rifle with a beautiful walnut buttstock/splinter forearm and the patina is a nice slick as glass shiny grey. I've disassembled/cleaned and reassembled it. Everything looks fine and functional. I really want to put this gun back into service. I've researched underhammers and all I can come up with is the fact that in the mid to late 1800's there were 1000's of these types of rifles churned out in the New England area w/o markings. I'm willing to do what it takes to get this rifle shootable. I'm getting bored with my inlines. Thanks for any suggestions, Buddy.

[docone31]

Were it me, before I toss the barrel,
I use on my old rustys valve compound on the patch. There is a water based valve compound in the Napa stores.
That does an amazing job of cleaning.
Smear it on the patch, load the ball, and go to town.
20 shots later you might be smiling.

[Buddy]

I've got some water based valve grinding compound in the shop. Sounds like it's worth a try. I just went thru the underhammer thread and found a pic of one that looks identical to mine, but they are all pretty similar. The barrel on this gun looks like a plowed cornfield but I would really like to keep it original. I'm positive this is not a kit gun someone put together as I know its history for about 75yrs.

[gnoahhh]

If it's as nice as you say it is and you have little in it, I would send it out for a re-bore.

[telebasher]

Sounds like a Hopkins and Allen Buggy Rifle IIRC. These were nice light rifles, I had one in 36 caliber, good shooter. So good in fact, a guy offered me almost double what I paid for it. They made several calibers available and were very affordable. Wished I still had mine, would make a great rifle for my grandkids. You need to get it cleaned up and shoot it, I bet it will shoot well enough to keep. They really are unique.

[John Taylor]

Hopkins and Allen under hammers did not come out till about 1955. This was a name Numrich started using for the new under hammer he started producing at that time. The under hammer dates back to 1750 with the early ones being flint.
I would try a rebore first but breach plug size and rust pits may be a problem. T.J.'s has a couple liners for muzzle loaders. With a liner you better find someone that knows what they are doing, again breach plug could be a problem. You could also put a new barrel on and set the old one aside. Green mountain has some good prices on barrels but not to many in stock.
Go here for more info. http://underhammers.blogspot.com/

[Buddy]

I'm going to try the valve compound 1st thing this weekend barring the rainstorm predicted. I have very little invested in this rifle. I traded a CVA Bobcat even up that I had $50 in. I can see distinct rifling in the tube, it appears to be rust buildup but who knows if it's pitted bad underneath. Some experimenting this weekend will tell me what I need to know. It has a neat front sight dovetailed in that has two wings sticking up on either side of the blade, looks to be original.

[Hanshi]

I have a .45 underhammer I bought in the mid 1960s. If you can't get it cleaned up enough to shoot I vote rebore.

[Tammany42]

You can cast a slug around an old bore brush skeleton in the muzzle and use that coated w/ valve compound. Works better than just shooting a ball down range

[Buddy]

I've got a homemade bullet puller I made by welding a small sheetmetel screw to the end of a hot dog roaster. It sounds funny but it works. I'm going to screw it into the end of a 45cal lead HP, wrap a tight enough patch soaked with valve grinding compound and give it a scrubbing and see what happens.

[Buddy]

I made about 200 passes w/valve grinding compound and have given in to the fact that this thing needs rebored. I want to keep the original barrel on it so now to find someone to do a rebore. The old Mountain State Muzzleloading guys are still in business under another name. That's a 100mi. round trip. Gas is $3.99 X 15mpg = $26.59. I can ship it to someone for less than that. Anyone on the forum up to it?

[gnoahhh]

I would without a second's hesitation contact Bob Hoyt at his Freishutz Gun Shop in Fairfield, PA. 717 642 6692. He has been doing rebores, freshening, stretching, and making new rifled muzzle loading barrels by hand for many years now. He totally knows what he's doing and I can guarantee that he'll do the job right. He's on the list of approved gunsmiths by the NSSA.

[Buddy]

Thanks, I'll give him a call.

[thunderthud]

just cuz the barrel looks bad it may not shoot bad. Have you tried to shoot it with a light load? A friend of mine brought out a CVA that was in a barn for 25 years without being cleaned. It was virtually a sewer pipe, dark & pitted. So he says I'll strip the parts / furniture off and throw the barrel away. I say not so fast lets shoot it and see how bad it is. Anyway, it shot center @ 25 yds. the patch was cut by the raged rifling but that can be smoothed out. as far as I know he'still shooting it.I'd use about 20 gr. of 3f and see how it goes If your're worrying about it blowing up clamp it to a board and set if off with safety fuse. . If it's that bad reboring or lining doesnt seem feasible imho. Freshening out an old rifle can be xpensive and time consuming , lots of the time more than the gun is worth. Even if an actual antique and plain "used up" rifle is not worth much unless you can prove it was owned by someone famous. I'd get some quotes on the proccess before proceeding. Shooting side or underhammer rifles is a world away from an inline. Most round ball rifles will shoot better than any inline now mind ya thats without a 10x scope sittin' on it. Our local club here we have about 50/50 flint & perc. shooters and a few national champs. We shoot only patched round ball or conical if a musket match or shot in fowlers. I've been actively shooting since 1976 and building since 1984. just another $.02 worth , watch yer topknot.

[Buddy]

I've lapped this barrel enough that I'm going to try and shoot it. I'm an inline guy and haven't shot a cap n ball rifle for 20yrs. I've got some loose T7 and Pyrodex Select. The bore slugs @ .509 so a 50 cal ball should work ok. I need some input on what I should use for a patch. I have some heavy flannel and some TC patches w/bore butter. Help me out I'm dyin' to shoot the old girl.
Thanks, Buddy

[Omnivore]

Hi Buddy. Been shooting cap and ball for several years now. The patch should be 100% cotton. Some flannels have synth fibers, others do not. The TC patches should work fine, but it depends on fit. Balls and patches are sold in slightly varying sizes and thickness for that reason. Start with what you have and see how it goes. I ended up using a very tight fit - a .490" ball with .015" patch in a .500 bore, but that's for a heavy load of black. You can start with whatever you have, so long as it fits tight enough for the ball to stay put when loaded. Work up to tighter fit if needed. I use the very tight fit so the rifling doesn't strip the ball/patch combo with the heavy hunting load I use in a fast-ish twist (48") for a ball.

As said, start with a very light load. Work up to 30 or 40 or so grains of FF Black (depending on how brave or foolish you are), testing it clamped on a bench and fired remotely just in case. I've used cargo straps wrapped around the bench to hold the rifle down, sand bags to support the rifle underneath, and c-clamps holding a 2 x 4 to the bench as a recoil lug, to proof test my hand/kit-built. Some of the substitute powders are more powerful than Old Black, so reduce charges a bit more and then work up if that's what you're using. Try to end up with your fingers, hands and other parts still attached in some fashion, to the rest of your body, that resembles they way they were at the outset of the project. It's more fun that way.

Don't write off the gun if it doesn't group right away. Ball/patch fit and charge weight can make a big difference.

If it was made pre 1900 the metallurgy won't be up to modern standards - not by a long shot, and if it's badly corroded, or even if it isn't, it could have hidden flaws that weaken it substantially. Use the proper discretion.

[Buddy]

The gun was purchased by a friend's grandfather in 1936. I'm going to strap it in the Lead Sled and try 20grns of T7 and whatever I can get a snug fit with. If it makes down the pipe ok without a catastrophe I'll work upwards still in the Lead Sled. This old gun is in great shape other than the barrel being neglected. I try not to be foolish or brave with anything that might rearrange my body parts.

[Charlie Sometimes]

Well, what happened?

Where are you located, Buddy?

You might be able to send it to Ed Rayl, don't know if he would reline it, but he can make you a new barrel for it. You may have heard of him- he's been at it since late 1970's, and he is good. His number is 304-364-8269 (Wm E Rayl, 18 Otter Ln, Gassaway, WV).

[Buddy]

5 shots yesterday and everything went well. It tore the patches up, but it fired ok. It still shows strong rifling in the areas that aren't corroded so I am going to work on it some more. Looks like some wet weather for a while. I'm in Wetzel county Charlie, high on the mountain overlooking the Ohio river.

[pietro]

FWIW, The synthetic BP's, T7 in particular, burn MUCH hotter than Holy Black - I would never use them in an old charcoal burner.

I would find some Goex FFFg instead - which is what I've been using in my underhammer with complete satisfaction.

Very decent patches can be had at a WalMart fabric dept - get a yard or two of some blue or red and white striped pillow ticking, and throw it in the wasking mashine for a few wash/rinse cycles to remove the sizing, and lube

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