Fackler sings the praise of the 147gr route for 9x19mm

[Dannix]

The ideal police bullet, Fackler, PDF
(Source: AR15 Ammo Forum FAQs, WOUND BALLISTICS)

Go figure. My impression was the venerable, knowledgeable guys around here greatly preferred 124gr +P over 147gr loads.

Thoughts?

[82nd airborne]

I dont know of anyone who has shot someone with BOTH, so almost any body that says one is better than the other in a factual manner, is probably blowing hot air. Id venture my opinion that the difference is minute, and with propper shot placement they will both work, but I prefer 230g .45. Ive shot deer with 9mm, 40 and .45. In all cases, the bigger, heavier bullets put down deer much quicker than did higher velocity and lighter bullets.
Once again, I dont know for sure which is better, but thats my insignificant opinion. Thanks for listening.

[9.3X62AL]

Go figure. My impression was the venerable, knowledgeable guys around here greatly preferred 124gr +P over 147gr loads.

Thoughts?

I'm certainly venerable! Knowledgeable.......dunno about that. Opinionated? Oh, he!! yeah.

I'm not impressed with the overall performance of the 9mm Sub-Sonic 147 grain JHP loading that Fackler & Associates foisted upon the law enforcement community in the wake of the 1986 Miami FBI bank robbery shootout. These have clocked in the 925-950 FPS range through my pistols in OEM trim. FWIW, these loads are about a 20% down-load from the caliber's safe pressure capability. Maybe some lab rat in a white coat can be convinced that down-loading a cartridge carried in harm's way from its full potential makes it more effective at fight-stopping, but most folks in the real world find that counter-intuitive.

I am disallowed now from carrying the full-tilt 125 grain-class loads in my sidearms, so I carry a 40 S&W or 45 ACP. Or a 357 Magnum. My wife carries Speer 124 grain +P Gold Dots in her SIG P-228. I guess that says a little something. These Speer loads--or loads like them--are much closer to 357 Magnum ballistics than to 38 Special. The subsonic 147s barely equal standard-pressure 38s.

That's the Reader's Digest version of my opinion on the 9mm sub-sonic question. I've raved pretty extensively on the politics and nonsense associated with its adoption in prior threads, so a search might unearth some of those rants.

Fackler doesn't get shot at for a living. I did, and many of those I trained did so as well. There are very few 9mm pistols being carried as primary sidearms in my old agency--LOTS of 40 S&W--and a good number of 45 ACP. Kind of a clue, that.

[Bret4207]

I was forced to use the 147 stuff. Based on my experience with car struck deer the 147 sub sonic is far less effective than the124+P and the 124+P was dismal compared to the 357 158 SP stuff we'd used for decades. The 147 subsonic basically duplicates the 38 Special RN stuff since it didn;t open reliably. Now this was all 15 years back. I know guys that shot BGs with the 147 and lived to tell about it. But a few anecdotal events aren't the same as dozens of examples with deer.

[Geraldo]

Dannix, did you look at the date on the bottom of those pdf pages?

Back in the era when that article was written, a friend recently out of Naval Special Warfare swore by 147gr 9mm Winchester. In the intervening years I knew several guys who had to shoot suspects with department issued Federal 9BPLE (115gr +P+) and it worked very well in all those cases.

In the end, I believe that hits and reliability are far more important than bullet weight and speed. If you think you need big bullets, carry a .45. If you think you need a lot of bullets, carry a 9mm or .40. If you want a lot of big bullets, get a G21.

[45r]

I'll stick to my Kimber 45acp.I've shot 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 yards using Hornady 200 grain XTP's.I'm very happy with it and it will never be for sale.

[Char-Gar]

I had thought that Fackler and the rest of the "Morgue Monsters" had passed into history along with the "Jello Junkies", but here he is again.

My Browning Hi-Power is loaded with 124 grains Remington Golden Saber ammo and if I do my part, they will do just fine.

[Bret4207]

Dannix, did you look at the date on the bottom of those pdf pages?

Back in the era when that article was written, a friend recently out of Naval Special Warfare swore by 147gr 9mm Winchester. In the intervening years I knew several guys who had to shoot suspects with department issued Federal 9BPLE (115gr +P+) and it worked very well in all those cases.

In the end, I believe that hits and reliability are far more important than bullet weight and speed. If you think you need big bullets, carry a .45. If you think you need a lot of bullets, carry a 9mm or .40. If you want a lot of big bullets, get a G21.

Multiple hits from a suppressed MP9 type auto platform in an offensive situation? That's a little different than a street cop in a defensive situation.

[Piedmont]

There are different generations of the 147 gr. loads and some do hit 1,000 fps. How they work I don't know, but I think they got a bad reputation early on.

[9.3X62AL]

The 9mm Subsonic development was an agenda-driven butt-covering sequence by FBI. THAT is what I distrust about the process that led to the ammunition adoption.

The terminal effects of the several shootings I've worked involving this ammunition did not give me warm, fuzzy feelings about its effectiveness. Recipients tend to require a large number of rounds to be installed to get the message, far more so than 40 S&W or 45 ACP, both of which are subjectively more difficult to control for the average shooter. Whatever that might mean in the terminal effects category.

Shot placement has much to do with any round's effectiveness. The variables from incident to incident are so ramified that trying to base a caliber decision on "street performance" is at best problematic. But where there's smoke, there could be fire......and the 9mm remains as controversial today as it was in the 1960s, at least in LEO firearms training discussions.

[S.R.Custom]

Back in the mid-90s I used to do a lot of pin shooting at a local club in Cincinnati. At this event they used to line up the pins 12" closer to the back of the table for the 9mm shooters, to make the 9mm "competitive." Well, my work with the 9mm at that time made it more competitive...

What I did was take the 147 gr. bevel base boolit and load it out to the same OAL as the 124 gr ball round (see pic). Because there was so much more exposed bearing surface, I had to take a .35 caliber throat reamer and lengthen the leade in my Beretta 92. After a few weeks of load development, I settled on a recipe that seated the 147 grainer over a bunch of AA #7 (I won't say how much), and the result was stunning, to say the least.

Loaded thusly, the 147 gr boolit leaves the 5" barrel of the Beretta at 1,210 fps. For those of you mathematically inclined, that translates to a power factor of 179, well in excess of the old Major PF of 175. Needless to say, it performed quite well on pins. So well, in fact, it wasn't long before the range officers quit giving me the 9mm pin placement.

That said, I tend to tune out the bunch that dismisses the 9mm as "inadequate." I'm quite fond of the cartridge, actually, and my current nightstand gun is still the Beretta 92. And if one were inclined to show up at the ranch sometime around 3AM without prior invitation, I'd be happy to share just about all the inadequate performance anyone could possibly want.

[MtGun44]

"Major 9" is what we called it in IPSC. Eventually banned it because too many guns were blown
up or beat to death in a few thousand rounds. Really destroys a HiPower soon. I shot with
major caliber with a compensated 1911 in .38 Super. My loads were safe, even in my unsupported
barrel (little portion of the brass case is unsupported by the chamber) and my competition load,
which I have fired about 70,000 out of that gun was a 148-155 gr LSWC at 1250 fps. Worked
fine, cases lasted forever - the powder was W571/HS7, sadly discontinued, I think.

This is basically a .357 mag equivalent, but there is no way that normal SAAMI pressures will
let you get 25% more velocity with the tiny 9mm case. Also, jacketed bullets will run slower
than boolits at the same pressures.

I carry a 9mm sometimes and I use the 124 Gold Dots. These open reliably in all the test
media (including mine, wet newsprint or phone books - same paper) and penetrate 12-14"
in ballistic gelatin, which seems enough.

That said - I carry 230 Gold Dots in a Commander 95% of the time. 9mm is OK, but depends
on the bullet opening up, and sometimes they don't. Slower velocity can't help the reliability
of expansion, so the 147gr 9mm seems pretty questionable.

Given Bret's actual experience with the load in deer, I'll continue to avoid it.

Bill

[Char-Gar]

I was reluctant to give up the 45 ACP for personal defense clinging to my 1911 and Sig P220. The situation down here, these days on the Tex/Mex border is really, really scary. The killings, torture and inhumanity to thousands is just a stone's throw away. The drug thugs come in groups these days and not the lone guy prying open your window. Home invasion by three, four or five is more the order of the day (or night). I have come to believe that the number of rounds available could be very important.

I keep a Smith 59 and four loaded hicap mags in my car. I keep a Browning Hi-Power and four loaded mags beside my bed. I never go to the door without picking it up first. I can also shoot these pistol as well as I can any a good 22 target pistol. I will also admit that the arthritis in my hands is taking it's toll on my accuracy level with big bore pistols.

[Piedmont]

Where were some of you guys when we had page after page of .32 pocket pistol exagerating? It was almost like a .30 carbine when you loaded it up!

[evan price]

Well for me the answer is "It Depends".

In a short barrel you lose velocity anyway. If I'm going to be at a certain velocity I might as well have weight. In the very short barrels- 4" and under- I carry the 147 Speer Gold Dot. In the longer barrels like my XD9 I carry 124 +P Gold Dots.

In the Power Factor game, 147 grains @ 1000 fps = PF147, and 124 grains @ 1200 fps = PF149 so what is really being lost? If the bullet is designed to function and expand at a given velocity the need for speed is diminished.

However my preference is a Sig 220 and 230-grain Ranger-T's.

[casterofboolits]

The 9mm that I rely on is a Tanfoglio 38 Super. 19 rounds of Silver Tips should lay down enough fire for me to get to the 12 gage!

[Bret4207]

Where were some of you guys when we had page after page of .32 pocket pistol exagerating? It was almost like a .30 carbine when you loaded it up!

Using good loads the 32 is BETTER than is reputed to be. Using lousy ammo the 9mm is WORSE than it's reputed to be. Follow me?

[pdawg_shooter]

I'll stick to my Kimber 45acp.I've shot 2 to 3 inch groups at 50 yards using Hornady 200 grain XTP's.I'm very happy with it and it will never be for sale.

+1 on the HTPs. That is all I carry for "serious social encounters" in my SIG P220.

[MtGun44]

Anybody along the border where no help is even remotely likely (pretty hard to see how
any help is going to happen along in time even in a crowded mall parking lot, actually) even
within hours would be well to keep the handgun on their person and a RIFLE with plenty
of ammo really close. Handguns are for the fight you did not have a clue was going to happen.
If you have a clue - make sure you have a rifle. Handguns, not matter which one (not talking
about the pocket rifles) are WAY less power than any ordinary rifle. Even a Win 94 in .30-30
would be great to have in a fight.

Stuff that is a trick shot with a pistol is a "gimme" with a rifle, and you have a lot more
horsepower. I never travel cross country without a rifle in the trunk.

Bill

[82nd airborne]

Both of my vehicles have their own dedicated AR-15 and ample amounts of their favorite foods.