12 gauge OO buckshot loads

[35remington]

The "multiple hit" theory on 12 gauge shotshells is valid only if the buckshot penetrate adequately.....and small buckshot do not. This has been thoroughly tested; I would be glad to provide links to those interested in the topic.

To some extent filling the buck load with smaller shot like F's is wasting space in the shell rather than optimizing it, as the small buckshot sizes cannot be depended upon to penetrate reliably in all instances, even at HD ranges.

Note that F buck does not reliably come anywhere near the accepted "minimum" in penetration in testing.

If a better buckshot load is wanted, rather than alternating small buck with large, simply fill it with number 1 buck. This is said to always penetrate adequately, and there are more of them in a similar space than 00 buck. All the buckshot in the shell are effective, not just some of them.

For a one ounce load, Herco isn't the best choice and spends about 10 grains more powder per shot than is necessary. Better are the trap load type powders.....Red Dot, 700X, Clays. Load under 8 00 buck or 9 0 buck for one ounce practice loads in a WAA12 (white) 1 1/8 ounce wad or its equivalent.

[UNIQUEDOT]

The "multiple hit" theory on 12 gauge shotshells is valid only if the buckshot penetrate adequately.....and small buckshot do not.

I can't speak for F shot as i have no experience with it, but what is being discussed is buckshot for home defense and if number one buck or even number three for that matter will not put down a human being with adequate penetration at home defense ranges there is something seriously wrong with ones loading technique or it's waaaayyyyy to cold outside...too much clothing.

[35remington]

Cold or loading technique don't have anything to do with it as long as even halfway intelligent selections are made as to powder. It's based on the size of the buckshot. Velocity, within the normal range of shotshells (1150 to 1350 fps) has only a small effect. Depending upon the load and how well the shot maintain their roundness, higher velocity may reduce penetration.

A rereading of my post is in order. 1 buck is fine. F buck is inadequate.

Threes, according to most credible testing, are borderline. Probably close range only. If the intruder in your house has anything resembling even somewhat heavier clothing (a jacket, for instance) they are not a good idea either. That pretty much rules out late fall and winter use.

[UNIQUEDOT]

A rereading of my post is in order. 1 buck is fine. F buck is inadequate.

OOOps, you are correct i didn't read your full post! I like the smaller buck for indoor use, but i keep the larger stuff handy just in case a need arose outside the home.

[Lloyd Smale]

Now ive never shot a man with buckshot so i cant comment there but when i was a teenager i shot probably a dozen deer with a 20 guage using 3 inch #4 buck and never lost one i shot at. Granted all were 25 yards or less but i dont forsee shooting more then 25 yards in any home. It may not be ideal and it surely isnt OO but I sure wouldnt want to be on the wrong side of a load of #3 or 4 buck inside of 25 yards! I know at 25 yards they will penetrate 1/4 inch plywood which is a bit tougher then my hide. Bottom line is at in home ranges fine shot would get it done! As to using herco heres my thoughts. Ive used 26.5 grains of herco for years. I can use it in about any shot load from an once to 1 1/4 once and use it with about any wad with those charges It may be a bit slow burning for 1 oz loads but i figure if a guy is going to go out and pound a couple hunded buckshot loads through a semi auto in a day the slower burning powder may just save some wear and tear on the gun. Im not a shot gun expert so im not sure this is even a valid point but it was a though of mine. that and i have about 30lbs of a 50lb batch of it I bought years ago.

[UNIQUEDOT]

I can use it in about any shot load from an once to 1 1/4 once

You actually have a workable one ounce load using herco? do you have any chrono results for it?

the slower burning powder may just save some wear and tear on the gun.

I'm amazed that it will even cycle the action with only an ounce of shot in front of it. I would think it would leave you with a filthy gun at the end of the day. The amount of herco required to shove a light weight of shot out of the bore and cycle the action of a semi auto seems to me wouldn't be worth the expense when red dot is probably the least expensive target powder available.

I tried unique with one ounce loads once and my hulls and gun were filthy after the testing. I was also surprised to find one ounce data for 800x especially since 700x is just about perfect for an ounce of shot in the 12 ga. and it's extremely economical.

[Lloyd Smale]

26.5 grains of herco and a once buck load runs fine in my 1100 and in my saiga with the gas block set on 2. It is a bit dirty though but no more then with green dot or unique. Just this last weekend i put over 200 through my saiga and it didnt miss a beat. Granted thats not much of a test as there based on aks and tend to run pretty much anything and arent to fussy about the cleaning. Like I said ive got alot of herco and for what it cost me im sure its cheaper to load then anyone going out and buying redot today even if you used half as much redot. By the way i run the same powder charge with slugs out of the lee mold and it works great for that too. I believe thats where i originaly came up with that load. Got it out of a book for one oz slug loads.

[35remington]

What matters in terms of wear and tear on the gun is the pressure at the gas port in a gas operated autoloader, and the velocity of the shot charge in a recoil operated autoloader.

Not sure Herco is gentler than a faster powder in either instance.....it would depend upon the loading. Just can't see using an extra ten grains more of powder than is needed for one ounce loads, and the reliability of the load might be more questionable in colder weather as Herco is not intended for one ounce loadings. Peak pressure may be excessively low but port pressure may be adequate. If it's burning dirty that would be a big clue to low peak pressure.

What powder is worth isn't what you paid for it ten or twenty years ago.......its worth is what it will cost to replace. Viewed in that light, Red Dot or its considerably cheaper replacement, Promo, come off looking better by comparison.

The buckshot issue in terms of penetration is well documented, with number one buck being most often recommended because of the large number of pellets in a standard shell and the unfailing reliable penetration under all circumstances. There's no reason to settle for the "maybes" of small buckshot when it is very well known what sizes always penetrate adequately. The standards that apply will very reasonably allow for the defeat of intermediate barriers, like an arm extended in from of the bad guy as he points his own gun at you, or a shot from the side where the arm protects the vital organs.

Not all shots will be an unobstructed chest shot at a guy wearing a tee shirt who obligingly presents a frontal view.

[Lloyd Smale]

by the way why is it anyone would question using herco with a one once load? The books are full of one oz slug loads using powders as slow as blue dot. I realize theres powders that make more economic sense but why would you question if it even works. Sure does in my guns.

[Lloyd Smale]

I guess ive gone through 55 years without killing a man yet and whether my load will do that isnt really a top priority in my loading. Like I said for a civilian the absolute only time youd unlease a 12 guage at another person is in your home and that means 10 foot shots and at that range your shot load probably hasint even left the cup and about anything you could load in a shotgun is going to take care of the problem

What matters in terms of wear and tear on the gun is the pressure at the gas port in a gas operated autoloader, and the velocity of the shot charge in a recoil operated autoloader.

Not sure Herco is gentler than a faster powder in either instance.....it would depend upon the loading. Just can't see using an extra ten grains of powder than is needed for one ounce loads, and the reliability of the load might be more questionable in colder weather as Herco is not intended for one ounce loadings. Peak pressure may be excessively low but port pressure may be adequate. If it's burning dirty that would be a big clue to low peak pressure.

What powder is worth isn't what you paid for it ten or twenty years ago.......its worth is what it will cost to replace. Viewed in that light, Red Dot or its considerably cheaper replacement, Promo, come off looking better by comparison.

The buckshot issue in terms of penetration is well documented, with number one buck being most often recommended because of the large number of pellets in a standard shell and the unfailing reliable penetration under all circumstances. There's no reason to settle for the "maybes" of small buckshot when it is very well known what sizes always penetrate adequately. The standards that apply will very reasonably allow for the defeat of intermediate barriers, like an arm extended in from of the bad guy as he points his own gun at you, or a shot from the side where the arm protects the vital organs.

Not all shots will be an unobstructed chest shot at a guy wearing a tee shirt who obligingly presents a frontal view.

[35remington]

Anything you can load in a shotgun will work? Most assuredly not. If there is a need to shoot, ineffective shotshells can get you killed.

Considerable testing has been done with birdshot, at even at the 10 foot ranges mentioned the shot charge does not penetrate as one mass, but rather more like individual pellets after a very short initial penetration.

Time to show those links. Birdshot for home defense has been pretty throughly discredited by now. Even at 10 feet.

Birdshot through buckshot tested here, with pictures. Note the range the testing was conducted at.......nine feet. Should lay the "anything will work, even birdshot, at home defense distances" argument to rest.

http://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/view...p?f=7&t=109958

See the comments about number one buck here. Comments specifically addressing #4 buck can be found in the first link:

http://www.firearmstactical.com/briefs10.htm

http://ammo.ar15.com/project/Self_De...N%20AMMUNITION

http://www.ar15.com/content/page.html?id=176

These guys aren't speculating. They wanted to know. They're giving answers to the question for a reason.....so you can make a better choice.

[UNIQUEDOT]

by the way why is it anyone would question using herco with a one once load? The books are full of one oz slug loads using powders as slow as blue dot. I realize theres powders that make more economic sense but why would you question if it even works. Sure does in my guns.

Look at the slug specific data closely. It takes a lot more slow burning powder to push a one ounce slug at velocities hunters desire out of slugs and faster powders release their energy too fast to reach those velocities so the only option is to use heavy charges of slow powders.

I do see your point though, if you have 30 lbs. of herco and don't load enough heavy field loads i guess it makes sense to use where ever you can.

It is a bit dirty though but no more then with green dot or unique.

How old is the green dot and unique you've been using? i have an extremely clean gun at the end of the day when i use the newer cleaner burning powders... and I'm addicted to the smell of red dot and green dot. If your gun is dirty with the newer powders it has to be because of low pressure.

[35remington]

I don't know what slug you are using, but reasonable pressures are one reason why they don't go too low in charge weight with Herco. If you're using a one ounce slug, you're almost ten grains below the 36 grains recommended. The 36 grain charge develops 10.4 to 10.6 KPSI according to Alliant under a one ounce slug. 26.5 grains is probably developing pretty low pressures. That's about 74 percent of what's recommended.

26.5 grains is more typically loaded with 1 1/4 ounce of shot where it develops around 10,000 psi at 1275 fps or so.

Lloyd no real criticism is intended because it's a free world and a fella can darn well do what he wants when he wants to and nobody is getting hurt here. Just saying the faster powders would work better in cold weather and would be cheaper but it doesn't really matter to me.

No criticism of Herco is intended by me here because it is one of my very favorite and most useful 12 and 20 gauge shotshell powders and works good in pistols too. I use it under 1 3/8 ounce shot in Federal paper base wad hulls in 12 gauge myself (about 1200 fps) with and without buffer and it is a fantastic pheasant load in any temperature. Even bitter cold.

Great in the 20 with 1 ounce of shot. Good stuff, I'll never be without it.

[Lloyd Smale]

and i read your posts on this with interst too. im a handgun and rifle reloader first. Shotgun reloading never did peak my interest like metalic loading does. Its one aspect of handloading that i still need to pay attention to the advice of about everyone at. You can probably sense that just in the fact that i want a one size fits all load.

[Lloyd Smale]

just for grins i set up the press to do 20 grains of redot and one advantage i can see is when loading 00 its now eaiser to get 9 pellets in with the wads im using. Before if I tried to get 9 in crimping would cause them to bulge out the sides and effect chambering in semi autos. I can get more #3 buck in too. close to an once and a 1/8 load.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Birdshot for home defense has been pretty throughly discredited by now. Even at 10 feet.

Was watching one of those crime shows on the ID channel a couple months ago and there was this scumbag whom decided to take his 16 year old girl friend out into the woods and kill her. He shot the poor girl repeatedly with 12 ga. birdshot from just a few feet away when he ran out of shells he went up the hill where his accomplices were parked to get more and shot her several more times. He took the last shell and put the muzzle to her heart and pulled the trigger and that shot finished her.

I don't remember how many times the investigators said he shot her, but i do remember one of the accomplices stating that every time he shot her she begged him to stop. Seeing that made me make darn sure i don't have any birdshot within reach of my home defense shotgun.

[UNIQUEDOT]

just for grins i set up the press to do 20 grains of redot and one advantage i can see is when loading 00 its now eaiser to get 9 pellets in with the wads im using. Before if I tried to get 9 in crimping would cause them to bulge out the sides and effect chambering in semi autos. I can get more #3 buck in too. close to an once and a 1/8 load.

Yep that's one more benefit of using faster powders for reduced recoil loads. I like green dot for loads that go over an ounce for the little bit of velocity increase, but it does require a few more grains weight. It takes up about the same hull space as the lighter red dot loading though.

[35remington]

If the #3 buck load really does weigh an ounce an an eighth or close to it, back down the load of Red Dot to 18 grains. 20 would be a little high. 18 Red Dot with the WAA12 wad in the WAA12 case gets around 10.4 KPSI 1 1/8 ounce shot. This at 1200 fps.

Knock it down another grain for 1150 fps. These days I mostly load 0 buck with 16.5 grains Red Dot and the WT12 cheapie orange AA clone and 9 0 buck. Nice mild low recoiling load. Will still function gas operated autoloaders that are not of the super or long magnum type.

[Lloyd Smale]

The load goes about 495 grain so is about half way between a once and an once and a 1/8. Powder charge with my bushing is actually 19.5 grains.

[UNIQUEDOT]

Red dot is the perfect choice for that weight. I load all my buck and slugs in straight walled cases so it takes a bit more powder for my loads although 19.5 is plenty enough for that weight even in a straight walled case as long as the proper wad is used.