38-55 BP primers?

[SharpsShooter]

No diddling needed with the pistol primers just seat and go.
Using a wad over the flashhole now there's some serious diddlin goin on...

Now that's a fact. Just seat the standard large pistol primer and go on with life. I like Federal primers personally

SS

[405]

To reduce the brisance on ignition of black powder, use a primer with the lowest energy flash ... http://www.castingstuff.com/primer_t..._reference.htm

Even though the tester is very humble about this data... I looked over the methods and data and it looks scientifically valid to me. Worth a look-see.

RE: the OP. For BPCR I've found lower velocity SDs with either standard large rifle primers or standard large pistol primers, depending on the particular cartridge, than with the magnum primers. Also, could not detect any significant difference when tesing the newsprint over-primer wad- although I can certainly see how it might help in certain instances.

[kokomokid]

good article by Bob Glodt in fall 2008 bpcr magazine on primers and newspaper wads. His test showed best results with std primer and newsprint in case keeping powder out of flash hole with swiss 1 1/2.

[Kenny Wasserburger]

Bryan Youngberg and myself had a vist over this very topic Sunday afternoon.

Bryan contends he no longer attempts to explain why he uses primer wads. He just uses them, his scores of the past couple years would be a good enough reason I would think.

However, I have to tend to agree with the results of my own findings are proof enough for myself. Chorongraph data with my Oheler 35P shows a load without primer wads of some sort often double the ES.

This will not show up on the target for most shooters, who test at 50 or even a 100 yards as many on this forum do. you will not see a lick of difference, in groups. At 200 yards there is, at least with my loads, enough difference to be measureable. If the load is running 2 MOA at 200 and your shooting Silhouette and are prefectly centered on the score animals you could have as much as 50% misses due to the vertical. Reducing the vertical to just 1.5 Moa will up your hits on the Rams a great deal at 500 meters. In 100 rod bench rest matches, (550 yrds) I can see a marked difference in groups with Primer wads then those without.

At Longer ranges, I have loads with Primer wads that show 1/2 MOA vertical and this will indeed show up in ones scores.

My old 38-55 now a 38-50 I put ashless filter paper between the pistol primer and the pocket, not only is the primer headspaced correctly now but the chrono Data shows lower ES and of course much lower SD's. Such a load with FFFg Express at Alliance last years spring match ran 6/6 on the 965 yrd buffalo with a 38-50 of all things.

In my 2-7/8ths I use a 40 caliber ashless filter paper wad inside the case for a Primer wad. I have nearly 17 years of chrono data and scores to validate that primer wads make a difference at least in my loads in the 45-110. This is valid paper data along with lots of good scores to back the claim up. I used to use a tracing paper wad of 45 caliber but Jim Terry told me about using a 40 cal wad and the use of ashless filter paper that we got input from Dan T about. I have yet found decent accuracy with a pistol primer in a 45-110, still have to use a Large Rifle primer and the primer wad to get the very best accuracy. After many years of testing I know they make a difference, I often drive over 2000 miles to attend a weeks worth of matches in AZ, I always load primer wads for this match, driving that far and not taking a little bit extra effort in my ammo seems crazy after the cost and time involved in attending a match of this type.

Respectfully I have only seen opinions on this thread not proof that the wads do not work.

I would challenge anyone to try them and chronograph the loads and actually shoot them on paper at a distance further then 100 yards.

Doc Lay uses them with his pistol primer loads.

KW
The Lunger

[Gunlaker]

Thanks for the info Kenny.

There are just so many things to experiment with in this game. I must admit I only once tried over primer wads and didn't do enough testing to get statistically valid results.

Most of my tests are done at 200m except when the clouds roll in at my range. Then the fog makes it impossible to see that far . At one of our recent off hand matches I had to wait for 5 minutes for the clouds to blow through so I could see a target at 100m.

If I can shave off anything close to 1/2 MOA at 200m then that would be fantastic.

Where exactly do you buy your ashless filter paper Kenny?

thanks,

Chris.

[Gunlaker]

I tried some over primer wads today (news print as that was what I had on hand) in my Shiloh.

I only fired a couple of ten shot groups at 200m. It's not enough testing to be confident of anything, but it looks like I might have squeezed the vertical down a bit. Maybe 1/2" at that distance.

If that works out to be consistent then I'm happy as can be.

I'll keep at it.

Chris.

[Hogpost]

Kenny, thank you for an interesting, comprehensive, and very compelling reply.

Two things in particular got my attenion:
1. Using the primer to punch the wad "adjusts" the depth issue of pistol primers in rifle pockets. I never thought of it, but it makes great sense. While I'm generally told not to worry about it for BP, it's nice to know there's a built-in fix.

2. You note you get best results in 45-110 with Large Rifle and the wad than in any other combination. The wad must thus do something more than just "weaken" the primer flash. Very intriguing!

Would be interested in knowing more (brand name, type, source, etc) of the filter paper you use; and if anyone has tried cigarette paper (like RizLa roll-your-own)

[Kenny Wasserburger]

The Paper is Watman Ashless filter paper the 1441 stuff you can get it At Amazon and few other places the larger disks 3 inch are not available right now but any size works I use a 40 cal wad punch to make mine for both inside the case and for the primer pickets.

Sorry been slow to get back to this thread.

The Lunger

[Gunlaker]

The Paper is Watman Ashless filter paper the 1441 stuff you can get it At Amazon and few other places the larger disks 3 inch are not available right now but any size works I use a 40 cal wad punch to make mine for both inside the case and for the primer pickets.

Sorry been slow to get back to this thread.

The Lunger

Thanks Kenny.

Chris.

[Hogpost]

I started this thread by asking about Magnum versus regular rifle primers for 38-55 BP; most responses suggested going even weaker with regular pistol primers, and even adding an overprimer wad, a great surprise to me. I did a simple quick check between Mag & regular rifle primers, which seemed to support the responses; but something seemed missing.

I’ve just completed a more comprehensive (but by no means scientific) 800-round test, and believe I now have a better understanding. There were some points unsaid in the various conversations that seem important. For what it’s worth, my brief conclusions are:

1. Crimping makes all the difference in the world. With an uncrimped round (for single-shot BPCR) the weaker the primer the more consistent the accuracy. I’d guess this is because the primer alone will start the boolit moving, resulting in powder being in a disturbed & moving state during combustion. With stoutly crimped rounds (for lever-action magazines), the hotter primers gave better consistency, possibly because more of the powder is combusted in the as-packed/non-moving state. My original quick check used only uncrimped rounds; this test used both types.

2. Magnum primers are cleaner. The comparative amount of fouling left behind in uncrimped rounds seemed apparently less with the larger/hotter primers; comparative fouling with crimped rounds was very clear.

This round of tests was not terribly scientific, but I consider it a good start, at least for my purposes:

50 rounds each: crimped/uncrimped, CCI primers L Pistol, L Pistol Mag, L Rifle, L Rifle Mag.

All rounds were 45 grns Swiss FFFG, each charge weighed to +/- .05 grn; 250 grn RCBS boolit/SPG lube, selected to within +/- 2 grn after lube; new Winchester 38-55 brass

All rounds fired through an 1894 Winchester with new 24” barrel.
Uncrimped rounds chamber-loaded one-by one, fired in strings of 10, with a barrel cleaning in between. Crimped rounds fed from the magazine 5 at-a-time, barrel cleaning every 10 rounds.

200 yards target distance; outdoors in a canyon, no wind. Fired from a benchrest over iron sights. Fired in daily groups of 100 by crimp/nocrimp & primer size. Consistency gauged as a measurement of average group size)

(Damn, my shoulder hurts!)

For my purposes (feral pig hunting < 100 yards & target/plinking with Win 1894 lever action running from the magazine) I will standardize on the CCI Lge Pistol Mag primer. Best consistency overall with crimped rounds, only microscopically less clean than Lge Rifle Mag. (In later tests, I find I can fire 50 rounds with essentially no increase of fouling after the first 5: the 2nd 10 as a string, and the last 10 as a string, show no measurable difference in accuracy; and a single wet patch is all that’s required for cleanup. Undoubtedly, Swiss FFFG helps, and I will stick with it also) [and the Pistol Mag primer is what I use in 44-40, my other favorite round for both revolver & ’92 Win]

I hope this information is of interest to others, as unscientific as it is. I’ve learned a lot, and appreciate all the posts that led me to do this testing. For my purposes, the conclusion regarding crimped versus non-crimped seems the most enlightening. I just pray my shoulder bruise goes away before I take on those damn pigs again!