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Thread: First time making Homemade dies - what diameters for ruffing and pre heat treat?

  1. #1
    Boolit Mold
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    First time making Homemade dies - what diameters for ruffing and pre heat treat?

    So Im about to start making my 224 dies soon and I was curious about afew diameters. I'm hoping for some input to help avoid as much trial-n-error as possible.

    -What diameter to make my d-reamer (to rough the pointing die)?

    -What diameter to hone/lap/polish the pointing die to before heat treating?

    -How much clearence in diameter is typically between the die and the punch(if my pointing die is .2240", its punch should be .2220"?)?

    Im making going to attempt to make my d-reamer from HSS and also make brass laps for after the d-reamer to get close to finished size and after heat treat

    I plan on making my dies from 4140 or 4340, what heat treating process would be best without much warping/scaling?

    sorry if theres a thread about this already, i tried searching. I have read what one or two people have done, im just hoping for afew opinions to confirm

  2. #2
    Boolit Buddy
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    HSS won't be as brittle as O-1 or W-1, don't ask me how I know. I'm just starting back on making my point forming die. I had to take some time off for my business this summer. I started with 4140 pre-hardened, but decided I will use it for the main body, but will make an insert out of W-1, so that I can harden it to 60+RC, anything softer and I think the die will stretch or wear to quickly. I'll try and get some measurements for you later today. Got to run right now. Hopefully some others will weigh in here. You can take Cane Man and Prospector Howard to the bank on what they tell you, others as well but they come to mind. I've been gone for 4-5 months.

    welcome to the board and good luck,
    CC

  3. #3
    Boolit Man jimbull34's Avatar
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    I've been making dies for some time now and I found this out, mostly by trial and error, A-10 Graph air is the best steel to use for point forming dies. It contains graphite and that allows seperation of the bullet after forming in the die a lot easier. It also is air cooled, no quenching needed after heat treating. Simply bring the die to cherry red, hold it there for a half hour and then let air cool to 100 degrees F and then put in oven at 400 for and hour shut off the oven and let cool. Heat treating done. I have a home made blast furnace that uses waste oil and propane and works great. For punches I use stressed steel rods, 1144, because they will wear out before the graph air will. The only bad thing about a10 is that it is fairly hard to work with on the lathe. Its hard and you go thru a lot of tools, unless you have a stone and sharpen them yourself like I do. I'm going to try some a6 which is also air cooled and see if it is a little easier to work with. I've used 12L14 and it is very easy to mill, but have not heat treated it so don't know how it reacts to that... Just my .02 cents worth..

  4. #4
    Boolit Master
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexbasher View Post
    -What diameter to make my d-reamer (to rough the pointing die)?
    make the d-reamer 0.008 smaller than your final ID, so i made mine 0.216, this means it will bore at 0.220 and gives you 0.004 to lap to final ID which worked out well for me

    -What diameter to hone/lap/polish the pointing die to before heat treating?
    just as above, you will ream to 0.220, leaving you 0.004 to lap, rough lap at 600grit to 0.222, then 2000grit to 0.223, then 5000grit or so to final ID... you will need to have your core seating die done so you can push some seated cores up into the point forming die for that last .001 or so to see where you are at, make a 0.222 test rod so you can see how close your are to final... my final ID is 0.2245 or so then i run it thru a sizer just as a safety precaution and peace of mind

    edit: i forgot, i believe i heat treated at 0.222, then final lapped to 0.224

    -How much clearence in diameter is typically between the die and the punch(if my pointing die is .2240", its punch should be .2220"?)?
    i would have to measure, but i think that is what i have

    I plan on making my dies from 4140 or 4340, what heat treating process would be best without much warping/scaling?
    i use O1 for my dies and i flame heat to orange with no hold time then oil quench then temper at 350F for 1 hour, i made a little heat treating oven out of a coffee can and stove insulation (if you can find the thread cc started there are pics there), not sure about heat treating 4140


    you can make brass laps, or just use production bullets as laps!
    Last edited by Cane_man; 12-13-2013 at 01:37 PM.

  5. #5
    Boolit Buddy
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    Cane,
    Thanks, you saved me some time digging through all those old threads, and trying to repost. I'll be digging through them anyway trying to find a few hidden nuggets, that I've forgotten.

    I still remember drilling that one die several thousandths undersized and when I measured it, it was several thousandths oversize. Drills never drill to size.

  6. #6
    Boolit Mold
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    thanks for the info...

    I do have a few chucks of O1 but still Im going to use 4140 for a majority of the work.

    well, Im making the die bodies today, going to pump out ten or so, so i'll make an extra from O1 as well i have some hardened 43XX chucks hardened to 35ish

    anyone try case harding or nitriding? I will be sending the die out to an actual heat treater
    Last edited by Hexbasher; 12-15-2013 at 03:57 PM.

  7. #7
    Boolit Buddy
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    I would recommend 50-60RC for the point forming die. 35RC might last a +/-2000 rds is what I was advised. Lots of pressure, friction swaging.

    Cane-man tried case hardening and moved onto O-1 IIRC. BTSniper nitrides, but I think his dies are already harder than 35RC.

  8. #8
    Boolit Mold
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    blast furnace it is. i have an oxy-ace torch and a rosebud, but i'd rather get them sent out and done proper. i have afew muzzle breaks (and other gun parts) i've made i wont mind getting hardened too.

    on another note, i just made my first derimming die. took it to 0.2245. 22lr case come out at 0.2250. i will probably make another. I read that the corbin dies are 0.2190

  9. #9
    Boolit Buddy
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hexbasher View Post
    blast furnace it is. i have an oxy-ace torch and a rosebud, but i'd rather get them sent out and done proper. i have afew muzzle breaks (and other gun parts) i've made i wont mind getting hardened too.

    on another note, i just made my first derimming die. took it to 0.2245. 22lr case come out at 0.2250. i will probably make another. I read that the corbin dies are 0.2190
    You want your de-rimming die to be smaller than the size of the finished bullet. "Swaging" means that you are taking something and making it larger by pressing it. "Sizing" means to take something and make it smaller.

    On the heat treating, I used to make custom knives. 3 of us would go together and have all of our blades heat treated together. It was $100 and $1 per item. So 1 knife was $101, and 100 knives was $200. See if your heat treater has a similar pricing format.

  10. #10
    Boolit Mold
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    Quote Originally Posted by customcutter View Post
    You want your de-rimming die to be smaller than the size of the finished bullet. "Swaging" means that you are taking something and making it larger by pressing it. "Sizing" means to take something and make it smaller.
    i know. 0.2190 derimming is next

    i ended up making 8 4140 die bodies, and this derimming was just an experiment, i pumped though about 100 22lr that were in my junk brass bucket and all derimmed fine without lube/cleaning/sorting/annealing

    (i may keep this die this way or later turn it into a holder for a Hornady zip-spindle to hold just a ball expander for my progressive press for the station after my dillon rt1200)

    i'm still hunting around the shop for some O1, ( i'm going to have to buy some 5/8" and 1/2" O1 for my punches and ejectors anyways) but i want to make those 01 die bodies now while my program is still in the lathe

    thanks alot for your input, i'd be lost if it wasn't for this forum

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