going to start making 224 swaging dies

[danr]

Hey. Keep those things to yourself would ya?

lol.. ok

[NoZombies]

If you're having the dies Cut CNC, would you consider having the ogive cut into the die with a thin ejector pin ALA corbin dies?

It probably won't be any harder for them, and I suspect you'll see fewer broken nose punches.

[Utah Shooter]

Hey, hey. Another thinker.

[xfoxofshogo]

the corbin dies have ther sher of not working i have seen that soft lead boolts that had the ejpin going thrue them on lead tip i whander if you can use a air compser to get them out ??

[Utah Shooter]

Finish nail should pop them out.

[mold maker]

Don't use air pressure directly. You'll literally create a bullet. (Pun intended)

[danr]

If you're having the dies Cut CNC, would you consider having the ogive cut into the die with a thin ejector pin ALA corbin dies?

It probably won't be any harder for them, and I suspect you'll see fewer broken nose punches.

no, because of the chances of having a pin punch all the way through a bullet due to not enough lube, or a rough surface in the die.

as for broken nose punches, i haven't had one break on me.. And I’ve hammered the heck out of a bunch of them. This is because the walls of the die, and the punch size are exactly the same, the walls provide support for the nose punch so that it doesn't expand at all while forming the nose of the bullet.. The nose punch is exactly .224 and the walls of the die are .224.. The force of the bullet being feed into the die forces the punch into place. This places it under a little stress while it’s in place to form the nose.

There are added benefits of doing things this way as well.. i will be able to offer multiple punches to end users at a very low cost. If the die contained the nose forming, you would have to buy a new die just to form a bullet of a different ogive. this way, it would be possible to form any ogive with the same die.

the smaller pin type punches also have a habit of bending or breaking when its hammered.. my style of punch nose forming allows for a much larger shaft, that will not bend or break, even under the worse cases of hammering.

for instance, while i was developing the nose punch method, i used a 3 pound sludge hammer to knock bullets out. i also used my auto-ejection system to punch them out, as well as a wood mallet to push bullets out.. all of which worked perfectly, with no swage lube, and no polishing of the inner die body. this is something you could never do with the pin type ejection punch.

on the production side, it also makes for better production.. the production company only has to keep a .0005 +/- tolerance on the .224 walls of the die body.. if they where to make the die form the points, then they would have to order a custom made reamer to make the nose, as well as keep tolerances of the nose its self.. this is very difficult for them to test for in the factory. it’s not a good thing to have a cnc operator squash a bullet cup and core into the die every 10 or so dies made. it runs up the costs horribly.

There are also other production benefits to having the punch form the point. When a production company makes the punch, they are able to access the ogive easily for verification of tolerances. Testing a punch for correct ogive is much easier than a die. with the punch they can easily reject it with little to no cost lost to them, as opposed to loosing an entire die in the process.

i have hopes of being able to offer replacement swage top punches at a very low cost, under $10 each.. so damaged punches shouldn't be a real issue to the end user. At a low price range like that, it also allows the end user to make the entire range of ogives for very little extra cost. i have plans to be able to offer ogives #2 through #8, as well as hollow point punches for all of them.

on top of things, this allows me to offer to the end users the ability to special order swage punches at any interval between each of the ogive points. Such as a #5.6 or a #4.5, Giving the end users an endless number of possibilities of bullet formations.

Hope this explains things.

Thanks,
Dan

[danr]

Finish nail should pop them out.

only if the die cavity is very well polished, and if even the smallest of grit gets into the walls, it would never come out.

this is a serious problem for a end user to face, to get a bullet out that has been punched all the way through, they have to get the drill and drill bits out, in hopes that they could remove enough of the bullet to grab ahold of it with a screw and pull it out.. this is something i would like to avoid if at all possible.

also finish nails are very soft, they bend very easily.

dan

[danr]

Don't use air pressure directly. You'll literally create a bullet. (Pun intended)

lol.. thats for sure.

i dont think air pressure alone can dislodge a bullet once it is stuck in a die. it takes a heck of allot of pressure with the punch pin to get a stuck bullet out of the dies..

my R&D set used a small punch pin, that was litterally 10 thousands larger than corbins pins, and even then, i got stuck bullets on occasion. i went through several different pin types, including finish nails, wood screws turned down to size, #15 torx bolts, you name it, trying to make a pin that wouldn't punch through a stuck bullet..

after all was done, the point formation was moved to the punch, solving all of the problems.

[danr]

the nose punch method allows for a punch shaft of .166 - .169 in size.. with tempered steel, its next to impossible to bend or break that size of a punch unless your really trying to do so, with a side throw of a hammer.

like i said, literally, a fresh cut die, with 0 lube, and no lapping on the walls, i was able to eject bullets from the die with little ease. something that i could never do with a pin punch. with all of that, the bullet still came out with no crunch or wrinkled walls..

where with a pin punch, if a bullet has issues being ejected, you'll end up with a malformed nose.

any time there is pressure put on the punch where the walls of the bullet is not supported, you'll end up with malformations. the pin punch does this allot, expecially if the bullet gets stuck after its pushed even .100 from the formation point. after even .005 of it being formed, the nose is no longer supported, and malformations can occure.

the nose punch, doesn't have this issue.. the nose of the bullet, and the walls of the bullet are always supported through the entire ejection and down the entire length of the bullet.

[MIBULLETS]

danr,

Have you measured any of the finished bullets? I wondered if they come out at .224" since the die is cut at that measurement I would think you might have a very small amount of spring back, but maybe not enough to notice. Just curious.

[danr]

danr,

Have you measured any of the finished bullets? I wondered if they come out at .224" since the die is cut at that measurement I would think you might have a very small amount of spring back, but maybe not enough to notice. Just curious.

i do checks with both lead fill, and bullet swage. the two come out exactly the same every time.

i first swage a lead core into the bullet swage with a flat nose punch, kinda like the core swage die does to check the size after it comes off of the lathe.. then after that core comes out and shows its at .224, i then switch out the punch to check bullet formation and uniform body form out.. i check the diameter of the finished bullet at that time as well..

i have noticed that brass spring back happens when your trying to size the bullets rather than at swage time. this could be because the lead is placed under pressure, which prevents the spring back from occuring. as opposed to sizing, it is removing the lead pressure on the back side, which allows it to spring back.


dan

[Tracy]

Hey Dan, if you have stopped taking orders for this batch, I would like to be in for a full set once you catch up and start taking orders again, if you do so.

[danr]

Hey Dan, if you have stopped taking orders for this batch, I would like to be in for a full set once you catch up and start taking orders again, if you do so.

hello tracy,
i've begun to recieve bids from production companies to give me a hand with production. so far, the bids look really good.. so i'll add you to the list.

we have decided that a run of a 100 sets would make it the most cost effective for the production companies. i'm at 56 right now.. so you'll make #57.

once this first run is shipped, i'll be making subsequent runs afterwards.

the run of 100 sets should only take a couple of days.. i'm just waiting on finalization of the bid numbers then we will cut the first die set to make sure there are no last tweeks to the design.. then we'll do the run. once i have the sets in hand, i'll start testing them and shipping them out.


dan

[bohica2xo]

I would like to know more about your heat treating process.

You have described several heat treat / hardness as numbers, like "#8" or "#16 tempered steel" - now that you are having the parts made by someone else, the description is "#15 barnell hardness"

What does all of this mean? I have looked on various websites, and can't find anything like this. Is this some proprietery heat treating you do?

Thanks

B.

[danr]

I would like to know more about your heat treating process.

You have described several heat treat / hardness as numbers, like "#8" or "#16 tempered steel" - now that you are having the parts made by someone else, the description is "#15 barnell hardness"

What does all of this mean? I have looked on various websites, and can't find anything like this. Is this some proprietery heat treating you do?

Thanks

B.

no, i dont do heat treating..

and i may be completely wrong when talking about barnell hardness compared to steel hardness.. one thing i'm not is a metalergist.

however, from what i understand, is that steel has a basic hardness property. tempered steel bolts are labled with a grade #, where a #8 tempered bolt, represents a bolt th at is tempered and hardened. usualy about 150ksi tensile strength. which is somewhat hard for common steels.

when a production company selects a steel to make a product, they select it based on its hardness properties. compared to the steel i use when making dies by hand, the steel that the production company has selected to use is 2 times harder.

i made a guess that steel bolt grades = barnell hardness.. since then, i've discovered that the two are not the same.. barnell hardness of 15 is actualy kinda soft compared to steel grades. where a #8 steel bolt would not be a #8 bnh.. we swage lead that is a 8 bnh, which is a somewhat soft lead. lead wheel weights are considered a 10 bnh...

the actual steel being used to make the dies will be 4140 prehardned round bar. so if someone wanted to do a tempering process with a kelm, then they could. however, i have no idea how to do this, as i've never done it before. but i dont think it will be needed.

my R&D dies are made from #8 tempered 7/8's bolts, and i have made well over 2,000 rounds with those dies without any real wear on the dies. they still swage at .224 and the nose is still perfect as when i made the dies. i'm assuming they have a life span, that sooner or later they will start showing signs of wear.. i have yet to see it with my personal R&D dies.

assuming there is a life span of dies made from a #8 tempered bolt, having dies made of a steel that is 2x harder than that would effectively double the life span of the swage die.
to make this life span much longer, a sizing die is included in the kit, which will take up the slack when the swage die begins to show wear. if the swage die begins to wear to the point that it starts swaging bullets larger than .224 then the sizing die will bring it back down to .224. i'm estimating that a sizing die put into the process could double this life span yet agian. in testing, i've been able to size a .136 bullet back down to .224. to give an example of just how bad things could get.

all in all, the total life span of the set should last long enough to pay for its self then several times over.

hope this clears some things up for yea.


dan

[nicholst55]

Normally, the hardness of heat treated steel is expressed using the Rockwell scale. For example, some 1911 sears are hardened to RC 58, or 58 on the Rockwell 'C' scale, rifle barrels might be hardened to RC 38 - at least, that's my understanding of how it works.

I bring this up only because listing the finished hardness in this manner will mean more to most of us than comparing it to a grade 8 bolt. The contractors should be using the Rockwell scale to indicate finished hardness anyway - or at least I'd be curious to know why they weren't.

Not intended as a flame, just trying to clarify things a bit.

[arjacobson]

the nose punch method allows for a punch shaft of .166 - .169 in size.. with tempered steel, its next to impossible to bend or break that size of a punch unless your really trying to do so, with a side throw of a hammer.

like i said, literally, a fresh cut die, with 0 lube, and no lapping on the walls, i was able to eject bullets from the die with little ease. something that i could never do with a pin punch. with all of that, the bullet still came out with no crunch or wrinkled walls..

where with a pin punch, if a bullet has issues being ejected, you'll end up with a malformed nose.

any time there is pressure put on the punch where the walls of the bullet is not supported, you'll end up with malformations. the pin punch does this allot, expecially if the bullet gets stuck after its pushed even .100 from the formation point. after even .005 of it being formed, the nose is no longer supported, and malformations can occure.

the nose punch, doesn't have this issue.. the nose of the bullet, and the walls of the bullet are always supported through the entire ejection and down the entire length of the bullet.

That is exactly how I made my prototype 45 acp dies. My only problem is the thin edge where the od of the bullet meets the ogive. It seems to be real hard to get the edges to blend well. Nice work though! Are you just reaming to final size? I think I am going to ream a few thou short of final size and then lap my next set of dies in. I too like the nose punch idea except for the above mentioned problems. You can make wadcutter type pistol dies all day long using the nose punch method.. Again nice work.

[danr]

Normally, the hardness of heat treated steel is expressed using the Rockwell scale. For example, some 1911 sears are hardened to RC 58, or 58 on the Rockwell 'C' scale, rifle barrels might be hardened to RC 38 - at least, that's my understanding of how it works.

I bring this up only because listing the finished hardness in this manner will mean more to most of us than comparing it to a grade 8 bolt. The contractors should be using the Rockwell scale to indicate finished hardness anyway - or at least I'd be curious to know why they weren't.

Not intended as a flame, just trying to clarify things a bit.

ah.. thanks.. that kinda does help.. i'll make sure to find out what rockwell hardness or brinell hardness of the dies will be when they are finished. when i find out, i'll post it here for everyone.

was doing a little searching, and it looks like metal shops tell the brinell hardness sometimes over rockwell.

i sent an email to the production company asking specifically what hardness the dies will be.. i may not get an answer until monday.. but either way, i will get an answer.


dan

[danr]

That is exactly how I made my prototype 45 acp dies. My only problem is the thin edge where the od of the bullet meets the ogive. It seems to be real hard to get the edges to blend well. Nice work though! Are you just reaming to final size? I think I am going to ream a few thou short of final size and then lap my next set of dies in. I too like the nose punch idea except for the above mentioned problems. You can make wadcutter type pistol dies all day long using the nose punch method.. Again nice work.

yea, that edge is a pain.. if i was going to be making dies at home, i would ream short then lap to size.. because its very hard to use say a .224 reamer, and get .224 when your done.. just .0001 off, and that throws the entire thing off.

but for a production company, .224 ream will produce a .224 final size and smooth finish. i have specified in the plans that the final size needs to be .2240 or .002 less.. so that it can be lapped to size. but it must not be over or it will be rejected.

when making pistol dies, i've found that .257 roberts seating die makes a perfect bullet swage die for 45. just a little lapping, and a custom top and bottom punch, and your done.

the 257 roberts sizing die makes a good 44 mag bullet.

dan