going to start making 224 swaging dies

[Love Life]

^^Bingo. Now swaged lead bullets that are PC'd...maybe.

[pretzelxx]

Well, I saw the original post and the price. I've saved my 22lr cases for swaging, apparently I'll have to keep saving now. I would have been able to buy in a couple months, now it'll take a year! I've powder coated, but I still was looking to swaging. I don't think it's dead, not yet.

[JonB_in_Glencoe]

snip...
we have some swage dies sets left in stock, but we'll likely hold on to them, they are packed in grease and berried like a lost treasure in the back yard. treasure map and all.
cheers.
Dan Rickard
Kaine Dies and bullet molds.

Is there going to be a "end of swaging" swage die set sale ?

Put me in line, if so.
Jon

[AMT7]

Sorry guys, Swaging is a dead art now thanks to powder coating. if you haven't looked into powder coating, i strongly suggest that you do. we pushed a 224 powder coated projectile upwards of 3800fps with little to no high pressure signs not even a flattened primer and no leading at all, no gas check either! we did a rapid bump fire 3 full 30 round mags nonstop with them, no leading nothing in the gas block or gas tube, the barrel was almost hot enough to melt lead. we where floored when we seen this on the range. so we dropped the swage die making and took up bullet mold making.

we also discovered that you DO NOT NEED lube grooves with powder coating or hi-tek coating. which opens up the possibilities for bullet profiles in cast.

we now make smooth walled bullet molds and we do sell samples on our site. feel free to check us out
http://www.kainemolds.com

as for making swage dies, we dont see a point in making them anymore. its just too damn easy to powder coat now.

the way we see it, is like when you where a teenager peddling around on a bike, once you got your drivers license and a car, what happened to the bike? it got left in the garage. because why peddle when you can drive! well, swaging can be compared to the bike and the car would be powder coating. why swage, when you can powder coat.

after doing some tests, and some number crunching, we figure out the following

with a 1950's GE electric cabinet oven, filled with 30 cal , 150gr #6 ogive projectiles on a rack spaced 1/2 inch apart on 4 levels, with the oven running 8 hours a day, 5 days a week, no breaks, when baking for a set is done, they are removed and another set is placed the oven is never turned off. running like this for 1 year, you could make 7.8 million projectiles!! with just 1 oven!

these numbers to us are amazing. it takes 30 minute bake time, and you can upwards of 10k rounds per pound of powder when you use a $68 freight harbor gun. the costs are nil to start compared to swaging. you can also use a $15 walmart toaster oven to bake projectiles.

all in all guys, i have to say its been fun, and thank you. we have some swage dies sets left in stock, but we'll likely hold on to them, they are packed in grease and berried like a lost treasure in the back yard. treasure map and all.

cheers.
Dan Rickard
Kaine Dies and bullet molds.

Your going to have to find and post credible ~3800 fps accuracy results. I for one am very curious due to having about half of my swaging supplies and a million 22lr cases. But I have all my coating suff and will start shooting those we cast hopefully next month.

[Bullshop]

So I guess this means all factory ammo will now come with PC or Hi-tec coated boolits since they are better.

[dragon813gt]

So I guess this means all factory ammo will now come with PC or Hi-tec coated boolits since they are better.

That's what I'm thinking. Prices should come down for factory offerings when this happens. So we can all stop rolling our own

[danr]

I have been watching but not seeing any real gain to coating. All the results I have seen have been unable to match the velocity/accuracy of conventional cast lubricated boolits not even mentioning swaged jacketed bullets.
At the 3800 fps you are claiming what level of accuracy were you getting? All I see in this post is that you were able to get high velocity and no leading but without accuracy those thing are meaningless.

our testing was a test to see if we could get them to lead. not accuracy. but with other loads we have been able to get 224's into a 3 inch groups at 100 yards. but we have not had much time to refine a load. been too busy making molds.

[danr]

guys, we have seen pc being the next best thing to jacketed. there's no question in our minds. we have put pc to the test with everything from little 380's to 308 norma mags and beyond and have seen some amazing things. the cost to just try them is cheap as hell compared to swaging. also all those 22lr cases you been saving will not go to a waste, you can make them into powder coating stands! we use both 22lr cases and 17 wmr's for bullet stands and they work great.

as for accuracy, myself and many others on the facebook page will be hunting with pc's this year for hog and deer. they are accurate enough to hunt, we could care less about the rest. if you want bench rest accuracy go buy your self a corbin swage die set.

in all reality, why bother spending several hours making a couple of hundred rounds when you can powder coat thousands in a half an hour, this includes bake time! you cant beat it. now if you want some real accurate rounds, then spend the time grouping them by weight. beyond that, nothing else needs to be done other than to work up a load.

we loaded some pc's up in a 44 mag, pushed them beyond max, we only stopped loading them hotter because it was going beyond what we felt was safe in our own minds, and yet still no leading, and no other reason why we couldn't push them even harder. really remarkable for just the cheapo $6 a pound freight harbor powder. feel free to jump over to the pc bullets & more facebook page where allot of guys are testing this stuff out from top to bottom.

we believe that when factory gets to powder coating, it will be an entirely new ball game when it comes to projectiles, because 80% of a factory round is in making the jacket and swaging it. if they eliminate jacket making and go to powder coating it will increase production 100 fold easy and reduce production costs to near nothing. if a 1950's GE oven can produce 7.8 million bullets per year just think what a walk in oven could do..

i believe in this to the point of packing up all of my swage die making tools and converted the company other to making molds. Kaine dies has gone further in powder coating technology than any other company to this date and we plan to stay that way. our molds are some of the cheapest custom molds on the face of the planet, and we can make them within 2 weeks of ordering. we not only make the molds, but we can make the production reamers onsite now! any caliber and any ogive you want. we can make it.


cheers
Dan

[danr]

oh and i did i mention we sell sample packs of 100 for $15 with FREE SHIPPING!

[Bullshop]

our testing was a test to see if we could get them to lead. not accuracy. but with other loads we have been able to get 224's into a 3 inch groups at 100 yards. but we have not had much time to refine a load. been too busy making molds.

Your being evasive. First you claim 3800 fps with no mention of accuracy. Then you claim 3" groups with other loads but fail to mention what those loads are and what velocity they produced.
I have been able the get 3" groups 100 yard groups with conventional lubed cast boolits at over 3600 fps but was told by members here that 3" 100 yard groups is more on the poor side than on the fair side of good accuracy and I agree.
I have no problem with you trying to generate business for yourself but please don't do it with BS which is what you have offered here in your most recent posts starting with the claim that swaging is now obsolete.
Some of the most knowledgeable people in the shooting world are regular members here and BS will not get by them. In the long term it will destroy any credibility you may have established.
You may get the new comers to the sport to follow the BS and maybe that is all you want. Maybe I am just under the delusion that there are more important things than money like honesty and integrity but I am old school and that is what they taught when I was young.

[dragon813gt]

3 MOA is acceptable for hunting? I know I won't use that load. I work on it to get to at least half that before I take it into the field. And I don't take any shots over 100 yards due to terrain. If 3" is good then I've been working way to hard on load development.

[Weber]

3 moa? No thanks!

[Love Life]

3 inch groups at 100 yards is garbage.

[freebullet]

3 inch groups at 100 yards is garbage.

Lol tell us how you really feel.

3moa is great for some guns in some cases. In 223 its purty good if its a 30 shot group fired in 5 seconds.

[danr]

Bullshop, a load for me will not yield the same results with any other firearm. a load for you will not yield the same results in any other firearm. you should know this. reloaders all over the world know this. also 3 inch group at 100 yards is great accuracy for a starting load. dont listen to those members who make out that 1/2 inch at 100 yards is their normal accuracy because it really is not.

as for bs, i have NEVER put BS here, and if you feel that way, feel free to leave.

Your being evasive. First you claim 3800 fps with no mention of accuracy. Then you claim 3" groups with other loads but fail to mention what those loads are and what velocity they produced.
I have been able the get 3" groups 100 yard groups with conventional lubed cast boolits at over 3600 fps but was told by members here that 3" 100 yard groups is more on the poor side than on the fair side of good accuracy and I agree.
I have no problem with you trying to generate business for yourself but please don't do it with BS which is what you have offered here in your most recent posts starting with the claim that swaging is now obsolete.
Some of the most knowledgeable people in the shooting world are regular members here and BS will not get by them. In the long term it will destroy any credibility you may have established.
You may get the new comers to the sport to follow the BS and maybe that is all you want. Maybe I am just under the delusion that there are more important things than money like honesty and integrity but I am old school and that is what they taught when I was young.

[danr]

yea, now i know why i dont bother to come back here.. hay TROLLS GET OFF MY THREAD!

[danr]

oh and btw - HAPPY EASTER!

this entire thread is ME, defending against claims of stupidity, people continually saying my claims are not what they seem to be. yet over and over again, i have proven you all WRONG. now, i'm done, so i could care less what you all think, ALL YOU TROLLS GO TO HELL, i'm done. CYA

a little phone call to the ADMINS is in order.

[DukeInFlorida]

Let's see..... that's a fire rate of 300+ per minute. About 1/2 machine gun speed.
So, someone zipped off a full 30 round mag of 223 rem in 5 seconds, and had all shots INSIDE of a 3" group, at 100 yards!....

Mathematically, that's a pretty tall tale....

I have pretty good gun control on my 720 round per minute gun, and at 20 yards, have trouble maintaining less than a one foot group. My gun, at that fire rate empties a 30 round mag at 2.5 seconds. (1/2 of what you are claiming)....

Lol tell us how you really feel.

3moa is great for some guns in some cases. In 223 its purty good if its a 30 shot group fired in 5 seconds.

[danr]

3 MOA is acceptable for hunting? I know I won't use that load. I work on it to get to at least half that before I take it into the field. And I don't take any shots over 100 yards due to terrain. If 3" is good then I've been working way to hard on load development.

dude.. remind me how big the kill zone is on a deer? or an elk? use a measuring tape and measure out 3 inches and tell me that is not pretty damn small at 100 yards.

also, i stated STARTING LOAD!

take the info as you like. just know, that i'm done with making swage dies. maybe you can get yours from CH4d, BT, or corbin. oh wait, Ch4d only does 1 run every 18 months, good luck getting dies from them. corbin has a waiting list of over 1 year, good luck getting any from them as well. who's left BT? dunno about him..

enjoy.

[dragon813gt]

First time I've been called a Troll here. I'm anything but a Troll. And so are the others that have posted since you posted PC being the death of swaging. I don't claim 1/2 MOA. I stated what my acceptable hunting MOA is. You're on a public forum. Don't expect everyone to just go along w/ what you say. I haven't see one reason to try PC. If 3" groups at 3800 fps is the best it can do then I will never try it. And this is just my opinion. I wouldn't have posted those results because they're asking for people to say bad things about them. MOA is still the standard we all strive for. Three times that is not good.

And as far as kill zone on a deer. This is 2014, not 1814. I'm an ethical hunter and don't want the animal to suffer. I will not take a 3 MOA rifle into the field when I can go to Walmart and pick up a rifle that's MOA out of the box. I've seen to many wounded animals over the years w/ rifles that are capable of MOA accuracy. I use the best that's available to me. Which is why I hunt predominately w/ jacketed bullets and leave the cast at home.