going to start making 224 swaging dies

[mold maker]

Did you get my PM asking for a set. I to would like the separate die.

[danr]

Did you get my PM asking for a set. I to would like the separate die.

done, #59



dan

[Red River Rick]

no, i dont do heat treating..


the actual steel being used to make the dies will be 4198 prehardned round bar. so if someone wanted to do a tempering process with a kelm, then they could. however, i have no idea how to do this, as i've never done it before. but i dont think it will be needed.

dan

4198? There is no such material on the market, are you sure about the numbers?

I've been a Tool & Die maker for almost 30 years, and I've never came across or heard of such material. Maybe some clarification would help.

BTW, heat treating is done in a furnace or kiln, not kelm.


RRR

[jixxerbill]

i think he meant 4140 pre.. he mentioned it earlier in this thread... and he lists rc around 38 so it would again point to 4140 pre....(i think its 28-32)

[danr]

4198? There is no such material on the market, are you sure about the numbers?

I've been a Tool & Die maker for almost 30 years, and I've never came across or heard of such material. Maybe some clarification would help.

BTW, heat treating is done in a furnace or kiln, not kelm.


RRR

sorry about that, i think i had reloading powders on the brain or something.

i ment 4140. as i said, i'm not a machinist nor am i a metalergist.

tool and die maker for 30 years? any suggestions for improvements?

thanks,
dan

[danr]

ok guys.. got info about the steel hardness of the dies from one of the production companies.

they are actualy planning on using a screw stock material, it is an 89 on the Rockwell B scale or 150-180 Brinell. so its harder than standard 1018 cold rolled.

we can go to ETD150 material that is pre-heat treated. This material is 33-38RC. but it would be an extra cost of $10 per die. so over 5 dies, looking at an extra $50.

for an extra $20 per die, or $100 extra per set, we can go with heat treating, to get them into the 50-55 RC range. however, there is a risk of the bore size changing from the heat treating.. so the dies will have to go through a recheck, and maybe more machining to bring them back to tollorances.

truelly, they dont go under much force to make 223's so i dont see the heat treating as being something that is really needed. going to a harder steel isant a bad option, however, it would only increase the life of the dies.

with a life span of over 4,000 rounds, its not really needed.. you've already saved your self enough money to buy 2 more sets.

thanks,
dan

[BwBrown]

I would be happy to invest the extra 50 for a higher grade steel. Most any steel could be pressed into service (pun intended) to make a handful of projectiles.

I'm more likely to try to make a number of thousands of them over the next decade. At the minimum, I would vote for the ETD150.

OR... go ahead and heat treat them, then sort them by size when making up sets. Might even be able to cater to the individual purist who has slugged his bore and then ask, "Do these come in .225?" or ".221" or...
Bob

[danr]

I would be happy to invest the extra 50 for a higher grade steel. Most any steel could be pressed into service (pun intended) to make a handful of projectiles.

I'm more likely to try to make a number of thousands of them over the next decade. At the minimum, I would vote for the ETD150.

OR... go ahead and heat treat them, then sort them by size when making up sets. Might even be able to cater to the individual purist who has slugged his bore and then ask, "Do these come in .225?" or ".221" or...
Bob

sorry, but heat treating is not going to happen unless i have a large number of 50 or so people who want it done.

i have to make a miniumum order of dies to be able to produce them at a mass production facility, but i also have to make a minimum order to send to the treatment facility on top of that.

its hard to have the production facility cut out 10 dies of just heat treatable material. when there's a tooling cost involved just doing so. its about a $200 setup fee just to start cutting dies at these places.. doing a 100 sets, the $200 is easily spread acrossed 500 dies.

so if i was go with heat treatable materal, i would have to go with that for all of them.

however, this doesn't mean that i couldn't cut a set of heat treatable dies by hand in my own shop for an individual willing to wait until i have idle time to do so.

it may still be less time than going to corbin... phun intended.



dan

[johndeeboy4]

I am ok with a a extra 50 so dose that make it 205+ship or am i wrong keep up the great work.

[danr]

I am ok with a a extra 50 so dose that make it 205+ship or am i wrong keep up the great work.

i cant be exact yet, unless the mass majority wants a harder die material, this would be a custom set that i would cut on my own lathe, instead of having the production company doing it.

also you would be facing a longer waiting period. basicaly, you'll be placed on a new list for those who want a harder alloy.

with seperate core swage die, around $245 for the set..

thanks,
dan

[CWME]

Gonna have to pull out of this one at $245. I can swing $155 for experimental dies but $245 is too much risk for my limited shooting budget.

[danr]

Gonna have to pull out of this one at $245. I can swing $155 for experimental dies but $245 is too much risk for my limited shooting budget.

cwme, dont worry, those guys are running up their own cost.. not for everyone.

the $155 4 die set is still on the plate.


dan

[danr]

today, i have met with the production company that will be producing the die bodies.. we have finalized the design plans, and they will be cutting a fiew sample parts for me to verify.. i should have those sample parts sometime next week. as soon as i get them, i'll be testing them and taking some pics for everyone.


right now, there is a 4 die set, and 5 die set. 4 die set has a combo core swage/seat die, and the 5 die has seperate core seat and core swage dies.
the prices are looking at $155 for 4 die set.
$195 for the 5 die set.


thanks,
dan

dan

[Red River Rick]

today, i have met with the production company that will be producing the die bodies.. we have finalized the design plans, and they will be cutting a fiew sample parts for me to verify.. i should have those sample parts sometime next week. as soon as i get them, i'll be testing them and taking some pics for everyone.


dan

Dan:

So, then these dies will be made from the screw stock material.

Well, I really don't think that the screw stock material is best for making dies. Actually, it's not the best material for anything other than making really cheap all-thread. Most of the screw stock material contains a small amount of lead, making it easier to machine or displace. That's why they use it to make cheap threaded rod.

So, if the company that's pushing the screw stock material, the only reason would be because it's cheap and relatively easy to machine. As compared to some more desirable tool steel.

The 4140 HT would have been the better choice. Also, since your not willing to go thru the entire heat treating process. As supplied, the 4140 HT runs around 28 - 32 Rc.

I, just like many others, would like to see the fruits of your labour.

The proto-type dies and some swaged samples will be an asset. We're looking forward.

RRR

[BwBrown]

Dan,
I thought you were suggesting options about steels when you wrote:

"ok guys.. got info about the steel hardness of the dies from one of the production companies.

they are actualy planning on using a screw stock material, it is an 89 on the Rockwell B scale or 150-180 Brinell. so its harder than standard 1018 cold rolled.

we can go to ETD150 material that is pre-heat treated. This material is 33-38RC. but it would be an extra cost of $10 per die. so over 5 dies, looking at an extra $50.

for an extra $20 per die, or $100 extra per set, we can go with heat treating, to get them into the 50-55 RC range. however, there is a risk of the bore size changing from the heat treating.. so the dies will have to go through a recheck, and maybe more machining to bring them back to tollorances."

I thought you were actually looking for opinions about this?

I offered one simple vote. for the EDT150 and you responded,

" those guys are running up their own cost.."

Really not trying to be difficult, that's not my way. Just let us know when things are going to be available. Most of us will buy in.
Bob

[danr]

ah i understand.. i took it as a request..

i posted the information as a FYI.. it is possible to produce them out of a harder steel, but its not something that i can do at production level unless i do it to a large quantity.

truelly, screw stock is a bit harder than the common steel threaded rod i have been using for R&D and prototypes.. so it is a leap forward for the dies i have made so far. soft common threaded rod has proven that it can be done, and still produce a large number of bullets. i just cannot garantee them for life. soft steel does put a lifespan on the dies. but you cannot expect a lifetime waranty for a cheap set of dies.

sorry about the confusion.


dan

Dan,
I thought you were suggesting options about steels when you wrote:

"ok guys.. got info about the steel hardness of the dies from one of the production companies.

they are actualy planning on using a screw stock material, it is an 89 on the Rockwell B scale or 150-180 Brinell. so its harder than standard 1018 cold rolled.

we can go to ETD150 material that is pre-heat treated. This material is 33-38RC. but it would be an extra cost of $10 per die. so over 5 dies, looking at an extra $50.

for an extra $20 per die, or $100 extra per set, we can go with heat treating, to get them into the 50-55 RC range. however, there is a risk of the bore size changing from the heat treating.. so the dies will have to go through a recheck, and maybe more machining to bring them back to tollorances."

I thought you were actually looking for opinions about this?

I offered one simple vote. for the EDT150 and you responded,

" those guys are running up their own cost.."

Really not trying to be difficult, that's not my way. Just let us know when things are going to be available. Most of us will buy in.
Bob

[CTomlin]

I am unsure of what you mean by 4 die set and 5 die set. If you could please explain what the 5th die is for exactly? I know that this is typically a 4 die set containing, Jacket making die (22rf to jackets) the core swage die (to make the core the weight that you require and the diameter of the core) the core seat die (seats the core into the case expanding to a certain diameter) then the final point forming die (places the ogive and giving you either a softpoint or a hp). What is this 5th die for? $155.00 is not cheap by any means. One would expect these dies to last quite a while. Now the steel you are talking about. I read you talked about using steel that is around the hardness in the 80's. If I remember correctly, one would want these to be a hardness around 58. Any harder than that, the steel becomes too hard and brittle. This would cause it to crack under pressure. Yes, swaging 224's, you do generate enough pressure to crack a die. I have seen this done on corbin dies and blackmon dies before.

[danr]

5 die set is as follows

de-rimm
core swage
core seat
point swage
final sizing die.

[jixxerbill]

dan first of all congrats on the great progress, i been watching this thread since the first page. i was just wondering and im tired so i might be miss-reading something but how is a combo core swage/seat die going to work.. if u make a core say .185 dia then put the jacket into the same die and place the core back into the die wont it be to big to fit in the jacket ? just wondering and again im reading thru tired eyes... keep up the great work....bill

[danr]

dan first of all congrats on the great progress, i been watching this thread since the first page. i was just wondering and im tired so i might be miss-reading something but how is a combo core swage/seat die going to work.. if u make a core say .185 dia then put the jacket into the same die and place the core back into the die wont it be to big to fit in the jacket ? just wondering and again im reading thru tired eyes... keep up the great work....bill

core seat/swage combo die, assumes you can make a rough sized core able to fit into the cup.

the combo die has a lead bleed hole in the bottom punch to allow for lead bleed off..
this allows you to adjust weight as the core is being seated.

the combo die is something that i came up with, it is an original design.. instead of using a core swage die to adjust weight of your core.. its able to adjust the weight during the seating process.

it works out very well. i used an old mold that i drilled to make rough cores.. they are about 2 inches long.. so i cut them in half, then use the combo swage to bring them into weight.

when using a swerate core swage die, and a seating die, i would cut my rough cores in half, then swage to weight.. then seat in the seating die.

so, the combo die combines the two into one.



dan